Now Dunston... that guy belongs in the hall.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Cubbie HOF absolutely!

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

The Shawon o meter needs to be there.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Right next to Neifi Perez.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Love you Sandy!

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I could do without Buehrle in the Hall, but when you really dig into the numbers he's close. Fangraphs has a good analysis of him. Buehrle is special in several ways. I think he's comparable to Glavine and Kaat. Of course Glavine has the magic 300 wins.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

And Sandy loves Ralph.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Rolen can't get in on just his hitting. He has to get in on his hitting and exceptional defense. He played in the NL Central for about a decade. All of you Cubs people were in a unique position to assess his defense. Did you think you were watching an exceptional defensive player?

That's Jay Jaffe. I don't always agree with him, but he does a great job of putting together biographies of every guy who is on the Hall of Fame ballot.

Really good, but not exceptional IMO.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

There have to be some exceptional third basemen, don't there? If he's not exceptional, who is? He's probably the second best guy defensively over there. Certainly the second best who could hit enough to keep the job everyday. I mean there are guys like Aurelio Rodriguez and Clete Boyer, but teams were always trying to replace them with someone who could hit and hit for power.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Why didn't Konerko get in? Ended the longest World Series drought in MLB history for a city.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

He's not a Hall of Famer but he'd certainly have to go in before Mark Grace.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

You're starting to sound like an idiot here. I think the only stat that Konerko really beats Grace in is HRs. Is HR the only thing you think a hallnof fame career should be judged upon? Or is this another of your ridiculous "eye test" baseball things?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

250 home runs and 300 RBI. Completely insignificant!

That's like saying the only thing you're better at in HVAC than me is fixing heaters.

The Cubby Chubby for Mark Grace is ABSURD. He wasn't as good as Wally Joyner.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I guess the golden gloves are insignificant. I guess the hits are insignificant.
To be fair I wouldn't vote either of them into the hall. I'm just saying Grace puts up just as solid an argument as Konerko does.
You're just like a bunch of other bonehead baseball fans. HR are really the only thing that matters in HOF conversations.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Power is pretty important for a first baseman. Certainly a lot more important than defense.

Your position isn't much different than saying, "The only thing Tom Brady does better than Justin Fields is pass the football."

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

It's actually quite significantly different.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Not really.

The positions matter. The most important skill for a modern QB is passing. The most important skill for a modern first baseman is power.

If Grace had his exact same numbers and played short, he would be a no brainer for the HoF.

Unfortunately, he was a lefthanded guy who lacked power so he was limited in the positions he could play. He was a good player. That's about it. He's discussed way too much.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

So you think Rolen is the 2nd best defensive 3rd baseman of all time?

I just can't go there.

But if he really is the 2nd best defensive guy ever then yes he deserves the HOF.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

In my lifetime outside of Schmidt, I cant remember a 3rd baseman who was lauded as much for his defense as Rolen was.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Joe Crede

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The only positions where defensive prowess should be a major factor in HoF voting are catcher, SS, and CF. While 3B is probably the next most difficult position, traditionally we have expected a 3B to hit for a lot of power and/or have a high BA. Rolen's numbers are very good, but not Hall worthy.

For me, a person getting in the Hall should be a no brainer. "Yes of course he was great." The mere fact that we have so much debate here is a strong signal he is not great enough to be in the Hall. And I hate, the concept of taking others that are in the Hall to use as reason to let the next guy in. Why use the lowest common denominator for letting the next guy in? It diminishes the value of being an HoF'er.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

I'm not sure I agree that defense isn't important for a 1st baseman. You won't see it in the stat sheet but the number of errors he saved the great HOFer Dunston is incredible. He was consistently on base. He saved tons of runs. His WAR is significantly higher than Konerkos. The only knock on the guy is that he didn't hit for power. He was ++ in all other categories.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I'd add having a legendary arm in RF. Clemente, Ichiro, Winfield level only.

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"When people want their version of the truth, they go find it, no matter how baseless their beliefs." -- Ken Rosenthal

Who was a better defender at 3B? Brooks Robinson and then.....its probably Rolen. Or you're using Google/Baseball Reference to go way back.

Michael Jack Schmidt played a marvelous 3rd base and hit 500 home runs.

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The hitting standard for 1B is much higher. It probably goes 1B, LF, RF, 3B in terms of hitting requirements. Effectively, the harder defensively the position the more leeway you give on hitting prowess. The sick thing about the current era is that SS's have been really good hitters including for power.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

My top 2 are Robinson and Schmidt. After that I dont really know. I would say at best Rolen is 3. But I just never watched him and thought all time best at the position. I dont really think he was that much better of a defender than Robin Ventura.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

dWAR says Rolen was slightly better.

Even if you say Rolen is 3...or 5, or 8, with his offensive numbers compared to other 3rd baseman and being a top 5-10 defender, does that not warrant his induction into the HOF?

Carlton Fisk had a .269 career avg, a sub 800 OPS, and 376 home runs. Those alone aren't HOF numbers, but did anybody argue that he wasn't a HOF player?

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Rolen being in does not really bother me. Just never really thought of him as HOF. But good for him. He did have a really nice career.

People dont seem to argue against Fisk, but they probably should.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."