The fact that I think Jordan isn't the "best ever"- if there even is such a thing- doesn't elevate Kobe. They're separate players. I don't really agree with Link that Kobe isn't a Top 30 guy of all time, but his list is a lot more realistic than some others.

This idea that a person is utterly insane for not just accepting Jordan as the undisputed best is silly. Link has Isiah a little higher than I would, but it's opinion. There is no objective fact in this pursuit. It's just fodder for conversations.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

JORR probably has Granville Waiters and Dave Corzine ahead of Kobe

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

You forgot Bob McAdoo also.

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Shaq never did anything without a top 3 guard. Even Jordan struggled without another guy who was top 5 st their position. The idea that Kobe should have done more than make the playoffs with Smush Parker is insane. Keep in mind the West was by far the best conference.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I’m actually glad Link made that statement because when I looked at the Shaq-less lineups of the late 2000s, it actually proved the opposite of what his point was. Kobe carried a bunch of (mostly) mediocre players to 3 straight finals.

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“Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.”- JD Vance
“My god, what an !diot.”- JD Vance tweet on Trump
“I’m a ‘Never Trump’ guy”- JD Vance

Ltg just loves post play.

Funny how the modern NBA lacks those types of players on his list now.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Kevin Garnett's mother wouldn't rank him ahead of Kobe. There is no case for him being better. He was the 3rd best player when he won his only championship.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

KG was also a childhood fave of mine. I liked him up until he became an asshole with Boston. Great size and motor. Would take his body type over Kobe but Kobe obviously accomplished more at a team and individual level. The Minnesota KG might qualify as the one of the greatest #2s ever even though he was miscast as a #1.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Pau was much better than you are giving him credit for, as was Odom.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I gave zippy the benefit of the doubt on Pau. I don't think Odom was at the same level as Pau but he was legit. A personal favorite of mine, always had a thing for point forwards. After Odom though...yuck. I mean Ariza was a good defender but that was really it.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Bynum had his moments too. Can't forget World Peace in Game 7 against Boston either.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I forgot about artest. In 2009 they didn't have artest.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

They won his first year in LA.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

His supporting cast in Minnesota was pretty bad
I did like Terell Brandon but he wasn’t a top tier pg
Cassell and Spree sucked
Wally World

Jack Haley

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Mark Madsen

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No love for Marbury?

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Yeah, together Bynum, Pau, Odom crushed teams for those couple years. Kobe was the clear star and best player obviously, but the idea that he carried mediocre guys to two titles is flat out wrong.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Link used the term “all time great”. I’m assuming you wouldn’t put Pau in that category. I understand he was very good and that is why I included the caveat “mostly”. If you want to toss Odom and Bynum into the mix of non-bums that’s fine but the basic statement still stands.

_________________
“Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.”- JD Vance
“My god, what an !diot.”- JD Vance tweet on Trump
“I’m a ‘Never Trump’ guy”- JD Vance

Yeah, Pau is an all time great man, but he wasn’t an all time great player.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Yep agreed. They could never put players around him that could compete with the Kings, Lakers, etc. I think they maxed out with a WCF appearance. In retrospect though he was really a #2, which is what I was trying to say earlier. He was forced to be a #1 because they had no one else outside of Starbury before he stupidly forced his way out.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

It also seems like Shaq didn't win without an alpha coach secure enough in his role to boss Shaq around. His only rings came with Jackson and Riley. He walked all over his other coaches when he was still good.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Jordan never won without Phil.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Pau is a Hall of Famer and the mere trade for him placed the Lakers in the title picture.

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Kobe was never regarded as anything than Robin to Shaq's Batman. That's why he could shit the bed in series after series and the Lakers would still win.

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You're the only one who believes this with no supporting evidence. We can see the stats and know you are wrong. We all saw Kobe close out games because Shaq couldn't make a free throw or because Shaq was in foul trouble. Kobe wasn't beloved by this generation of players because he could jump high. He's beloved because he was a killer and he won five titles.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

You're going to war with a Slingshot. Now tell me what "WE" all saw again.

These stats from the Pacers Lakers series validate everything that I have stated. Shaq was the dude during the 3 peat.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... akers.html
37% and 15 points per game. Shaq avg. 38 per game for the series

Look at the Advanced Stats for that particular series. Kobe's were atrocious!

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I'm fine with saying Kobe was a really really good #2 to Shaq's no 1 during the first two championships. They were equally 1 during the third. Kobe obviously was the clear-cut no 1 during his second championship run with Gasol.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Gasol should have received a Finals MVP during one of those series against Boston.

I'd give Kobe 1 but Gasol would definitely he no less than 1A during their run. He was a helluva lot more instrumental than he ever got credit for.

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I'm not sure if anyone is not giving Gasol credit. Kobe doesn't win 2 finals without Gasol. I think they/I am saying he was clearly Pippen.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY