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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:05 pm 
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BigW72 wrote:
BD wrote:
blackhawksfan wrote:
Losing 2 games to the A's should be enough for Rick Hahn to throw in the towel.


Being in the AL Central will continue to allow them to wait until they are forced to make a decision at the end of this month. Losing a series to Oakland is very bad though. They are a very bad road team and are now 6 games behind Minny and 7 behind Cleveland in the loss column (5.5 overall). I believe fangraphs have them with a 4% chance of making the playoffs.

At some point, this is who they are and Hahn needs to start thinking about how he will retool this roster.

I don't expect a full rebuild so players like Robert and Cease won't be moved, but I would expect that any moves with Giolito has to bring back young pitching given how thin they are heading into the off-season. Lance Lynn can't be brought back at his current option so it's basically Cease and prayers that Kopech/Crochet can actually contribute in the rotation next year. Even if those two are able to start the year in the rotation, neither can be trusted to pitch into games and will have inning restrictions. They could really use someone just like Giolito, but I doubt he'd sign without testing free agency. They need to get 2 highly regarded prospects for Giolito and they will want them to be able to contribute next season.

One benefit of the trade deadline will be to get out of some of these reliever contracts. I think Graveman is owed $8M, Kelly $9.5 (club option) and Bummer $5M for next season. Bummer is not likely to be moved, but maybe some team wants a lefty.

They still need to find help at C, 2B, possibly SS/3B and RF. The only spots I think they would be set at is Vaughn (1B), Benintendi (LF), Robert (CF) and Jimenez (DH/RF). Moncada will be on the roster next season, and he'll likely be the 3B (assuming his back doesn't require some surgery that puts him out) with Burger. I don't think trading Anderson makes sense on a down season and he will be back at $14M (club option), but we don't know the state of their relationship. Colas will probably be the RF next year also. I don't believe they have an answer at 2B, but don't doubt they will continue to try and find one from their group of internal candidates, but they really need to shake things up offensively much more than I am guessing they will.

So rinse and repeat another re-stack by the same group that continuously fails to accomplish anything. That's White Sox :oops:


With Lynn, Hendricks, Clevinger and likely some shedding of contracts coming later this month, they will be able to spend in free agency on a few players assuming they aren't cutting payroll (which you can't rule out given that they are very budget driven and coming off a season with a 20%+ drop in atttendance).

I wouldn't expect a full rebuild though. I do think they need a larger shakeup too, but I still think they believe in the core they have and just need to tinker around the edges. This off-season, they will have some payroll flexibility if they choose to use it. If they move Giolito and a few relievers, my guess is they will acquire a few younger players that they think can contribute next season (I would guess that Giolito would bring back 2 guys they think are MLB ready next year with one them being a starting pitcher). Colas will get another opportunity in RF also so they will mix in 3-4 younger players, but it's just really hard to see them go full blown rebuilding.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:47 pm 
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The Hawk wrote:
Burger, to me, has a pretty simple fix for his hitting woes if he had a decent hitting coach. He is standing too far away from the plate and deep in the box and is chasing slders and breaking pitches away. He needs to open his stance a bit and move up in the box so he can recognize the breaking pitches and get them more on the center of the bat and able to reach the outside pitch and take it to right field more especially with two strikes on him. I believe that Robert made a similar adjustment and he is pulling the outside pitch more and making better contact. Different swing places but same principles.

Looks like Burger's wife made a change in Burger's hitting approach? Sign her up!!

It turns out that his wife saw a similar thing that I noticed about his set up and he made an adjustment in his set up at the plate. It looked like he did move up in the box and opened his stance up in the latest games. It does make me wonder how much the Sox coaches are worth? I also have questions about the way that they set up their bullpens for work and the pitch calling itself as well as the approach for going after hitters and not waste so many pitches in trying to strike out people instead of trying to get early outs? Way to often they get ahead in the count and is instead of going after the hitter with quality pitches, they instead "nibble" and end up walking the guy or throwing him a "cookie".

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:49 pm 
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The Sox can spend whenever they want. They simply choose not to.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:52 pm 
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BD wrote:
BigW72 wrote:
BD wrote:
blackhawksfan wrote:
Losing 2 games to the A's should be enough for Rick Hahn to throw in the towel.


Being in the AL Central will continue to allow them to wait until they are forced to make a decision at the end of this month. Losing a series to Oakland is very bad though. They are a very bad road team and are now 6 games behind Minny and 7 behind Cleveland in the loss column (5.5 overall). I believe fangraphs have them with a 4% chance of making the playoffs.

At some point, this is who they are and Hahn needs to start thinking about how he will retool this roster.

I don't expect a full rebuild so players like Robert and Cease won't be moved, but I would expect that any moves with Giolito has to bring back young pitching given how thin they are heading into the off-season. Lance Lynn can't be brought back at his current option so it's basically Cease and prayers that Kopech/Crochet can actually contribute in the rotation next year. Even if those two are able to start the year in the rotation, neither can be trusted to pitch into games and will have inning restrictions. They could really use someone just like Giolito, but I doubt he'd sign without testing free agency. They need to get 2 highly regarded prospects for Giolito and they will want them to be able to contribute next season.

One benefit of the trade deadline will be to get out of some of these reliever contracts. I think Graveman is owed $8M, Kelly $9.5 (club option) and Bummer $5M for next season. Bummer is not likely to be moved, but maybe some team wants a lefty.

They still need to find help at C, 2B, possibly SS/3B and RF. The only spots I think they would be set at is Vaughn (1B), Benintendi (LF), Robert (CF) and Jimenez (DH/RF). Moncada will be on the roster next season, and he'll likely be the 3B (assuming his back doesn't require some surgery that puts him out) with Burger. I don't think trading Anderson makes sense on a down season and he will be back at $14M (club option), but we don't know the state of their relationship. Colas will probably be the RF next year also. I don't believe they have an answer at 2B, but don't doubt they will continue to try and find one from their group of internal candidates, but they really need to shake things up offensively much more than I am guessing they will.

So rinse and repeat another re-stack by the same group that continuously fails to accomplish anything. That's White Sox :oops:


With Lynn, Hendricks, Clevinger and likely some shedding of contracts coming later this month, they will be able to spend in free agency on a few players assuming they aren't cutting payroll (which you can't rule out given that they are very budget driven and coming off a season with a 20%+ drop in atttendance).

I wouldn't expect a full rebuild though. I do think they need a larger shakeup too, but I still think they believe in the core they have and just need to tinker around the edges. This off-season, they will have some payroll flexibility if they choose to use it. If they move Giolito and a few relievers, my guess is they will acquire a few younger players that they think can contribute next season (I would guess that Giolito would bring back 2 guys they think are MLB ready next year with one them being a starting pitcher). Colas will get another opportunity in RF also so they will mix in 3-4 younger players, but it's just really hard to see them go full blown rebuilding.


I hope they spend on someone better than Benitendi, BD.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 2:40 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
BD wrote:
BigW72 wrote:
BD wrote:
blackhawksfan wrote:
Losing 2 games to the A's should be enough for Rick Hahn to throw in the towel.


Being in the AL Central will continue to allow them to wait until they are forced to make a decision at the end of this month. Losing a series to Oakland is very bad though. They are a very bad road team and are now 6 games behind Minny and 7 behind Cleveland in the loss column (5.5 overall). I believe fangraphs have them with a 4% chance of making the playoffs.

At some point, this is who they are and Hahn needs to start thinking about how he will retool this roster.

I don't expect a full rebuild so players like Robert and Cease won't be moved, but I would expect that any moves with Giolito has to bring back young pitching given how thin they are heading into the off-season. Lance Lynn can't be brought back at his current option so it's basically Cease and prayers that Kopech/Crochet can actually contribute in the rotation next year. Even if those two are able to start the year in the rotation, neither can be trusted to pitch into games and will have inning restrictions. They could really use someone just like Giolito, but I doubt he'd sign without testing free agency. They need to get 2 highly regarded prospects for Giolito and they will want them to be able to contribute next season.

One benefit of the trade deadline will be to get out of some of these reliever contracts. I think Graveman is owed $8M, Kelly $9.5 (club option) and Bummer $5M for next season. Bummer is not likely to be moved, but maybe some team wants a lefty.

They still need to find help at C, 2B, possibly SS/3B and RF. The only spots I think they would be set at is Vaughn (1B), Benintendi (LF), Robert (CF) and Jimenez (DH/RF). Moncada will be on the roster next season, and he'll likely be the 3B (assuming his back doesn't require some surgery that puts him out) with Burger. I don't think trading Anderson makes sense on a down season and he will be back at $14M (club option), but we don't know the state of their relationship. Colas will probably be the RF next year also. I don't believe they have an answer at 2B, but don't doubt they will continue to try and find one from their group of internal candidates, but they really need to shake things up offensively much more than I am guessing they will.

So rinse and repeat another re-stack by the same group that continuously fails to accomplish anything. That's White Sox :oops:


With Lynn, Hendricks, Clevinger and likely some shedding of contracts coming later this month, they will be able to spend in free agency on a few players assuming they aren't cutting payroll (which you can't rule out given that they are very budget driven and coming off a season with a 20%+ drop in atttendance).

I wouldn't expect a full rebuild though. I do think they need a larger shakeup too, but I still think they believe in the core they have and just need to tinker around the edges. This off-season, they will have some payroll flexibility if they choose to use it. If they move Giolito and a few relievers, my guess is they will acquire a few younger players that they think can contribute next season (I would guess that Giolito would bring back 2 guys they think are MLB ready next year with one them being a starting pitcher). Colas will get another opportunity in RF also so they will mix in 3-4 younger players, but it's just really hard to see them go full blown rebuilding.


I hope they spend on someone better than Benitendi, BD.


Even if they are willing to spend money, assuming Giolito, Clevinger, Grandall and Lynn move on, there's very little reason to think they will spend on any elite free agents. Maybe they surprise, but the history suggests little chance of any elite names.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 3:34 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
The Sox can spend whenever they want. They simply choose not to.


They are currently spending about $185M, which is respectable, but they chose not to upgrade clear holes this off-season. When they signed their younger players to early, long-term deals, we were sold on the fact that they would have more cost certainty and then be able to spend some of the savings on other free agents. They have spent some, but clearly not what most fans thought to supplement the young talent.

Going forward, it's hard to see them spending above what they currently are, and it wouldn't be shocking to see them cut and spin that as maintaining flexibility.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 4:21 pm 
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BD wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
The Sox can spend whenever they want. They simply choose not to.


They are currently spending about $185M, which is respectable...

Which is year after year a lesson in confusing activity with accomplishment

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:50 am 
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I think that Benintendi has been a pretty good signing after all. He does do a good job getting on based and even hits left handed pitchers pretty well. No power certainly but at the top of the line-up, he does a pretty good job and is a decent left fielder.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:16 am 
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Benintendi is trash, Hawk A Roo


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:30 am 
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Benintendi career risp 323 409 .486 .895


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:44 am 
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The Hawk wrote:
I think that Benintendi has been a pretty good signing after all. He does do a good job getting on based and even hits left handed pitchers pretty well. No power certainly but at the top of the line-up, he does a pretty good job and is a decent left fielder.


He's a good role player. I'm curious if his hand injury has reduced his already limited power numbers to what they are now, but, he's been a solid OBP player. I'm not sure how good he actually is defensively - is his arm considered to be average? Not that it's being used much in LF, but he is a clear upgrade over what they had been putting out there.

Did they overpay for him? Probably, but I would imagine that another team would have paid him somewhat similarly.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:48 am 
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BigW72 wrote:
BD wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
The Sox can spend whenever they want. They simply choose not to.


They are currently spending about $185M, which is respectable...

Which is year after year a lesson in confusing activity with accomplishment


How they spend their money is probably a different question as to 'if' they are spending their money, but it is disappointing that they didn't spend more to address key issues. The roster construction is clearly an issue - multi-year deals to relievers who are normally not dependable year to year, having a log jam of 1B/DH types, not addressing gaping holes at C, 2B and RF. No stars added to this team.....

Lots of issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:53 am 
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BD wrote:
multi-year deals to relievers who are normally not dependable year to year,


This is a big issue. All that money to bums and their best relievers are arguably Gregory Santos and Keynan Middleton.

I'm about as big a Sox fan as one can be and they managed to sour me. I waited for years while they lost on purpose with the promise that when the time came they would make the necessary moves. They signed Andrew Benintendi and let Abreu walk to play a mediocre guy at first.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:53 am 
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BD wrote:
The Hawk wrote:
I think that Benintendi has been a pretty good signing after all. He does do a good job getting on based and even hits left handed pitchers pretty well. No power certainly but at the top of the line-up, he does a pretty good job and is a decent left fielder.


He's a good role player. I'm curious if his hand injury has reduced his already limited power numbers to what they are now, but, he's been a solid OBP player. I'm not sure how good he actually is defensively - is his arm considered to be average? Not that it's being used much in LF, but he is a clear upgrade over what they had been putting out there.

Did they overpay for him? Probably, but I would imagine that another team would have paid him somewhat similarly.

Of all the problems the White Sox have this year, Benintendi is far down the list. Maybe management should concentrate on getting the players to have their fucking heads in the game instead.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:59 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
BD wrote:
The Hawk wrote:
I think that Benintendi has been a pretty good signing after all. He does do a good job getting on based and even hits left handed pitchers pretty well. No power certainly but at the top of the line-up, he does a pretty good job and is a decent left fielder.


He's a good role player. I'm curious if his hand injury has reduced his already limited power numbers to what they are now, but, he's been a solid OBP player. I'm not sure how good he actually is defensively - is his arm considered to be average? Not that it's being used much in LF, but he is a clear upgrade over what they had been putting out there.

Did they overpay for him? Probably, but I would imagine that another team would have paid him somewhat similarly.

Of all the problems the White Sox have this year, Benintendi is far down the list. Maybe management should concentrate on getting the players to have their fucking heads in the game instead.

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Yep, I think lack of power in LF is an issue, but he is way down the list of issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 10:24 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
All that money to bums and their best relievers are arguably Gregory Santos and Keynan Middleton.
I told you three years ago that Bummer was one of Hahn's worst signings and you would have none of it. Graveman, overall, has been pretty solid for the Sox. As has Hendriks, but in terms of on the field with him this year has been a waste.

But this goes back to guys like Kelvim Herrera, Andrew Sisco, Scott Linebrink, Joakim Soria, etc. Its been years if not decades of the Sox spending bad money on their bullpen which is just another sign that Kenny Williams is still involved on the roster development at some level.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:43 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
All that money to bums and their best relievers are arguably Gregory Santos and Keynan Middleton.
I told you three years ago that Bummer was one of Hahn's worst signings and you would have none of it. Graveman, overall, has been pretty solid for the Sox. As has Hendriks, but in terms of on the field with him this year has been a waste.

But this goes back to guys like Kelvim Herrera, Andrew Sisco, Scott Linebrink, Joakim Soria, etc. Its been years if not decades of the Sox spending bad money on their bullpen which is just another sign that Kenny Williams is still involved on the roster development at some level.


Very good points. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to lock yourself into longer term deals with relievers. There are too many examples of players not performing year to year. Very odd way to spend when you have budget constraints - this feels like a convenient way for the White Sox to show they do spend money, but they are doing so on smaller money deals without having to commit themselves to star players.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:47 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
I told you three years ago that Bummer was one of Hahn's worst signings and you would have none of it.



Because it's false. I'm sorry you're too simple to understand who Bummer is and what his role was supposed to be and how the three batter minimum affected him.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:49 pm 
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The Sox spend money. They don't spend enough of it and what they do spend they do so poorly more often than not.

Their three largest FA signings in history are Dunn, Grandal, and Benintendi.

Two of those are a couple of the worst regulars/starters in Sox history. The jury is still out on Benintendi obviously, but its not off to a great start there either.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 1:03 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Because it's false. I'm sorry you're too simple to understand who Bummer is and what his role was supposed to be and how the three batter minimum affected him.
You have a strange definition of false.

If the three batter rule is what essentially eliminated Bummer's game or role, as you state, then his numbers against leadoff hitters should still be pretty good, right?

I'm no baseball savant, but I would have to say that a reliver who allows 1.061 OPS to the first guy he faces is not good.
Now, where did I get that specific number you might ask? Right here; https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... r=2022&t=p

Well what about 2023, Frank?! Sure, Bummer has improved but he's still allowing a .924 OPS to the first batter he faces.

So let me ask you a question. What good is a reliver if he can't get the first guy he faces out? Or are you too simple to understand this question?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 1:18 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
BD wrote:
multi-year deals to relievers who are normally not dependable year to year,


This is a big issue. All that money to bums and their best relievers are arguably Gregory Santos and Keynan Middleton.

I'm about as big a Sox fan as one can be and they managed to sour me. I waited for years while they lost on purpose with the promise that when the time came they would make the necessary moves. They signed Andrew Benintendi and let Abreu walk to play a mediocre guy at first.

Vaughn is on pace to have 40 doubles, 21 HR, and close to 100 RBI. He's a little better at 1st than I'd thought he'd be, it's hard to say because he's a small target, but he can stretch out for the ball. Abreu, as usual, didn't catch fire until June 1. Which for the White Sox, is too late for that shit.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:14 pm 
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Bummer records 1 out and gives up 5 runs.

Is that a good pitching line or a bad line, JOrr? Us simple folk need to know :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:24 pm 
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Finally get a good performance out of Lance Lynn, and they can’t score a run in ten innings to win .

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:25 pm 
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Sox starting pitching staff now has 6 games where they have given up 2 ER or less with at least 10 Ks. Sox are 0-6 in those games.

Thats impressively bad :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:42 pm 
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Grifol not unhappy with Bummer’s performance while Garfein thinks the Sox really have to string some wins together to avoid being sellers at the deadline.

The Aristocrats!!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 8:03 pm 
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Nah, Bummer is fine. Its the three batter rule that ruined him.

We all know Bummer sucks. But in the rare instance when he is on his game, what does he do? Strikes guys out and gets ground balls. Great time for Grifol to bring the infield in...with a ground ball pitcher on the mound and when a double play gets you out of the inning.

This organization is beyond a dumpster fire.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 10:01 pm 
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Maybe Lance Lynn is Toronto kryptonite.
First 10 innings: Blue Jays 1 hit.
Next 8 innings: 21 hits, 11 runs.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 6:27 am 
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37-52 . I believe 15 games under is their low watermark of the season.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 6:40 am 
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Nardi wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
BD wrote:
multi-year deals to relievers who are normally not dependable year to year,


This is a big issue. All that money to bums and their best relievers are arguably Gregory Santos and Keynan Middleton.

I'm about as big a Sox fan as one can be and they managed to sour me. I waited for years while they lost on purpose with the promise that when the time came they would make the necessary moves. They signed Andrew Benintendi and let Abreu walk to play a mediocre guy at first.

Vaughn is on pace to have 40 doubles, 21 HR, and close to 100 RBI. He's a little better at 1st than I'd thought he'd be, it's hard to say because he's a small target, but he can stretch out for the ball. Abreu, as usual, didn't catch fire until June 1. Which for the White Sox, is too late for that shit.



Like I said, mediocre.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 6:53 am 
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Sox 25th worst MLB record. Below Detroit now. A team specifically built to lose. Much hyped Cubs "this team has talent" 22nd worst. One of the worst Chicago baseball summers in memory.


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