...into the strike zone after receiving the pitch, the umpire should automatically call it a ball. In that case it's obvious the catcher thought it was a ball. If he didn't he wouldn't need to attempt to "frame" the pitch. So if he thinks it's a ball, why shouldn't the umpire?

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Should the impact really care or see the glove?

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Is "impact" supposed to be "umpire" above?

If so, I would say that if the umpire notices the catcher dragging the ball into the strikezone it makes calling the pitch a no brainer. It's a ball. Calling it a strike is just rewarding the defense for subterfuge.

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Yeah, autocorrect.

I get it’s a tough job but the point is to see the ball cross the plate. What happens after that should have no bearing on the call.

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I thought that the "art" of pitch framing was moving the ball back into the strike zone in such a way that the umpire doesn't notice you doing it?

Rick Dempsey had a little presentation on the 'art' of fooling the umpire. It's probably on youtube or somewhere

Yes, see where the ball crosses the plate in that millisecond.

According to Dempsey, JORR's premise is somewhat suspect. You are moving the glove, but you're keeping your arm still and just flicking your wrist with the glove more or less in the strike zone to begin with.

https://youtu.be/v2GliQ_tls0?si=F4e9cjw29jh_rLww

Edited for brevity but ya know.

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If went the opposite way when umpiring on any call where somebody tried to deceive me it would be ugly.

If you really thought it was a strike, why would you need to move the glove at all?

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The catcher doesn't think it's a strike, and tries to move his glove in a way that's not detectable by the umpire. If he does it right, the umpire doesn't notice and, therefore, is not in position to react to the movement of the glove.

I don't think anything is perfectly still back there, and there's always some movement. It's the job of the framer to make framing movement look like normal movement.

Correct. So if the umpire does notice it, it should be an automatic ball, right? My main point is that if the pitcher's own teammate who has the same basic view as the umpire doesn't think it's a strike, why should the umpire disagree?

The guy moving the glove is trying to cheat, isn't he?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
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If you accept the premise that there's always some movement, you can't call balls and strikes based solely on movement. If you did, you would be calling pitches right down the middle balls. I think framing works because the umpire can't distinguish normal movement from framing movement. Also, there's a possibility that the best framers have the same movement every time (the ball is always getting pulled to the center of the plate even when it's basically there already) and are not making a conscious attempt to frame, which would make it even harder to detect.

Maybe. But when a pitcher drops a curve right into the zone and freezes the batter you see the catcher hold his glove in place like he's a statue.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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pitch-framing is about to become completely irrelevant anyway. We are an eyelash away from automated ball and strike calls, at least on a partial basis. 10 years from now, pitch framing is going to seem quaint and old-fashioned.

True, but even then I suspect there's at least some movement in between the time the ball is caught and the freeze takes place.

I would welcome that change. Framing does nothing for me as a fan. I would rather see them just get the call right.

It unduly kept Grandal having a job.

Manfred on pitch framing:

The last point is something that Manfred touched on yesterday. “I think the players feel that a catcher that frames is part of the art of the game,” Manfred said. “If in fact framing is no longer important, the kind of players that would occupy that position might be different than they are today. You could hypothesize a world where instead of a premium catcher who’s focused on defense, the catching position becomes a more offensive player. That alters people’s careers, so those are real, legitimate concerns that we need to think all the way through before we jump off that bridge.”

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/05/ ... -2025.html

I don't agree with that take.

Yeah, I'd go as far as saying that's a moronic stance. I mean WTF?

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Yeah I can’t believe that is coming from the commissioner. That sounds like something the union rep says. I would rather have someone on the field that can contribute offensively to the game instead of some sack of shit that through sleight of hand induce the wrong call.

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If the ump saw the pitch out of the zone prior to the catcher framing the pitch then the framing shouldn’t matter at all. Isn’t that their job?

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Remember when Bernsie thought that bum Cubs catcher was a HOFer because framing.

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That’s the job.

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No. Next question.

But there are people out there that think framing is the catcher's most important job. It seems the commissioner is one of them.

It makes it very easy when the umpire sees the glove move, doesn't it? If the catcher doesn't think it's a strike, why should the umpire?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The catcher’s job is to catch. The catcher doesn’t determine balls and strikes. The umpire determines balls and strikes independent of what the catcher does (if they are doing their job properly).

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Right. And when he sees the glove move, the catcher made his call very easy!

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don