I agree, he's an inning eater and has good outings at times. The problem is he does not belong in the front half of the order so he should not have been in the positions he was in this year.

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Paws Up

I've not once talked about his salary. I'm talking solely about the fact that he cannot be relied upon to pitch well in a big game.

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Javy Vazquez is stealing $$$$ from the White Sox...He is that bad a pitcher! Frank, you are absolutely right about Javy...

he lost 8 of his last 10 so that will leave us with a bad memory of him. I'm all for replacing him with someone better for same or less $$, but I wouldn't give him up just to get rid of him. If Buehrle, Danks, & Floyd can be the 1-3 guys, then I don't think Vazquez will matter much. His 10 to 16 wins he's gotten every year since 2000 will be welcome.

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Paws Up

If I remember correctly, he also wet himself in 06. His most productive year in Chicago was 07, when the Sox were out of it in May. In fact, his most productive years have been with shitty teams--the 07 Sox and the Expos. The guy just cant perform when it counts. Him and Dye are your best chips. Some pitching coach with an ego will take him, like cooper.

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"YOU GOTTA BE BLEEPING ME"

Javy is the fuckin tin man-- no heart, no fortitude to go out and pitch a big game.

He sucked down the stretch in '06 and again this year. And again, I am not expecting, nor asking, him to go out and throw 8 innings of shutout ball. I'm expecting him to get at least into the 6th or 7th giving up no more than 3 runs. At least that keeps the Sox in the game. 4 starts in a row during crunch time he couldn't make it thru the 5th with less than 5 runs. Thats horseshit for any pitcher, especially a "veteran", making as much $ as he is, with as good a "stuff" that he supposedly has.

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Who are the free-agent middle infield options?

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"YOU GOTTA BE BLEEPING ME"

I'm not sure, but KW will probably make a trade for that position. Iguchi was cut by the Padres. If they can't land a solid middle infielder, I wouldn't mind seeing the Gooch back here as the everyday second baseman hitting 8th. One thing we've all learned from Kenny, there will be at least one move this offseason that at some point makes us all go "WOW!"

In November '05, it was the Thome deal. On Xmas '06, it was the McCarthy deal. This season, it was the Quentin deal. They may not make us say "wow" the day they happen, like the Thome trade, but at some point they do. Danks and Quentin wowed us many times in 2008.

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Bringing back Iguchi seems like a good idea to me. He does a good job hitting behind the runner in the #2 spot in the order. Plus he has some pop and plays a solid second base. They would probably get him at a fairly low salary too.

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Go Cubs!!!!

I said KW should shop Jenks, I wasn't saying "trade Jenks immediately". Big difference there.

That said, he absolutely should shop Jenks. It doesn't hurt him at all to shop him around. The Sox don't have many tradeabele assets at the major league level right now, and Jenks is one of them.

KW and the Sox have been great at not just scouting around baseball, but scouting their own players. Jenks is still a very good closer (don't get me wrong), but with pitchers especially, you need to know when it's time to sell.

He'll be 28 next year, his velocity is down, he was on the DL this year, fewest strikeout total among all closers with 30 or more saves, arbitration eligible this off season.

I like having him on the Sox, he's still a very good closer (not top 5 in baseball by any means). If the Brewers or Mets call and offer me something good, I'm sure as heck listening if I'm Kenny. To think you would get Longoria or a Sizemore type player is crazy. Closer is one of the positions in baseball where you can find "a guy". See Jenks, Bobby, 2005 season.

I could've sworn Tadahito was injured much of this season with the San Diego Padres, and I think he's on the bench for the Philadelphia Phillies right now after the Padres released him...

First off, you can't just find a closer. Saying that is like the Bears saying they can "find" a QB. Do you remember the Billy Koch era? Shingo? You might be able to find a guy for a season or part of a season. But, to find a guy that is top 5 year in and year out is just as hard as it is to find a top flight starter.Ask the Mets and Brewers how that goes? If Bobby Jenks is on any of these teams, they might still be playing. Better yet, ask Braves fans about how a closer by comittee worked from 93-00. One of the reasons they constantly wet themselves in October is that they always lacked a real closer. Their pen is always in flux. When did the Sox pen fall apart? When Jenks went down...Jenks has really blown maybe a dozen games since he took over in 05. His save percentage is among the best in baseball every year. He is actually more effective now than he was in 05 when he threw the ball 101. He has great command and knows how to battle.

He is not a top 5 closer in baseball...show me 5 that you would rather have?
Pappelbon
Nathan
Rivera
K-Rod..thats it.

You could make a case for Brad Lidge, but anyone that gives up 2 back-breaking HRs in post season games in less than a week would not be in my bullpen, especially when one is to Scott Pods.

What do these guys have in common? They have been good for a while and their teams are in contention every year. Teams without solid closers do not contend year in and year out, ask the Tigers. If there is one guy that was important to the Yankee dynasty it was Mo. If you put some mediocre closer on the Twins, they are ordinary every year. I would even probably rather have Jenks than K-Rod. It is not exactly difficult to get 60 saves when you get 70 chances. Also, the Angels were up by double digits since about June. Where is the pressure?

Jenks was very effective down the stretch in 05 (except for game 2) and pretty solid in 06. He blew one game down the stretch that I can remember this year (to the Twins at the dome, but he was not exactly given a great situation).

No one is untouchable, but unless you can get an ALL STAR position player in his prime AND a quality replacement, trading Jenks is stupid. Other than Danks, Floyd, and maybe Buerhle, he is your most important guy. You simply will not get market value for him.

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"YOU GOTTA BE BLEEPING ME"

You make good points, and it's a healthy discussion.

I know you don't just find a closer, but in baseball it is easier to find a closer within your organization or off the scrap heap than any other position in baseball. While you point out Shingo and Koch (and zero argument from me on them), you can also give evidence to guys like Lidge (given up for dead after the '05 playoffs), Kerry Wood (love or hate him), George Sherrill, hell even Dan Wheeler in Tampa. If trading Jenks gets you a young upcoming star (Fernando Martinez of the Mets as an example), I would make that deal.

I would put these five guys as "stud" closers, you don't say Lidge, but I will. His numbers are ridiculous this season.

K-Rod
Rivera
Papelbon
Soria (if he played in a big market, you'd hear about him non-stop)
Lidge

I'm not diminishing Jenks, I put him in the next tier (at/near the top with BJ Ryan). I'm not diminishing the closer position either, I realize the important value it brings. Personally I had more confidence in Thornton down the stretch than Jenks. I realize it's a different role, but when you look at the situations Thornton came into, they were as vital as intense as closing.

I won't have any issue if Jenks is closing for the Sox in '09, all I'm saying is if trading him gets the Sox a stud young CF, I'd be for it.

Healthy discussion for sure. I wish we were having a healthy discussion about who to start in game one, but this is what we get. My main point was that I believe there is a HUGE drop off between the "tier 1" guys (which I believe Jenks is in) and the "tier 2" guys. Jenks strikes more fear into a team than George Sherill. Maybe not in the stats, intimidation level. Having a closer that is "lights out" changes the way the other team plays the game, even if the "lights out" is a little bit of an overstatement. The X factor for the top guys is significant. Your list seemed similar to mine, I would wait on Soria. I think he is a stud, but lets see if he can do it again. Now...if you could get Soria and that young 3B they have (name is escaping me) you might have something. On a side note, how bad are the closers in the NL? I think that proves my point, teams w/o good closers are mediocre. But, I would not trade Jenks for anything less than one proven major league all star, but thats just me. Lets see what Kenny does.

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"YOU GOTTA BE BLEEPING ME"

This is a team in transition that has enough talent, and with some additions, that will be in the race again next season.... As you mentioned, with Richard (or some other youngster claiming a spot in the rotation next season), they will have 3 young starters to go with Buerhle, and probably Vazquez. Jenks is still young, as you mentioned in the bullpen.

They will still have veteran hitters like Pierzynski, Thome, Konerko and Dye (with the possibilty of one of these sluggers being moved), but have mixed in younger hitters like Quentin, Ramirez, and Swisher with the possibility of Getz moving in at 2B next season.

I wonder if the Sox would be able to match other offers for Roberts, plus I believe he only has 1 year left on his deal with Baltimore. True, the Sox were willing to trade for Cabrera with one year on his deal, but a deal with Baltimore will probably cost us younger players, and with the farm system in rebuilding mode, it will be interesting to see if Kenny Williams is willing to part with his better minor league talent for possibly 1 year from Roberts.

Extremely possible. He's probably ready for an opportunity, he has some skills (speed) that the White Sox could use. I'd feel more comfortable with him if Kenny is able to land a proven/accomplished lead-off hitter in CF.

I think you will probably end up being correct on Juan Uribe. I don't know that he'll get a multi-year deal anywhere, but he could get a chance to start somewhere else.

I don't think Crede will get a multi-year deal. Possibly a year deal with incentives or a 2nd (and maybe more) to kick in if he accomplishes certain goals next season.

Anyone know if the White Sox are the hook for that whole $4 million that is due for Griffey's buyout or are the Reds pitching in on that?

Detroit has major pitching problems. I'm sure they will have stretches where they outscore teams, but there's a lot of concerns on that staff.

Looks like Kenny may indeed be shopping Jenks to the Mets after all. As I mentioned in the thread above, I think it's the right move to shop him. I know you have to replace him, but I still hold my belief that now is the time to sell on Jenks.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/w ... index.html

I agree that stock is very high on Jenks, but he was the only reliable arm out of that pen after June 1 this season, so I would hate to see him go

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Shopping Jenks also leeds to speculation that they have someone in mind as a closer in waiting... Thornton??

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Trevor Hoffman is now available.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Jenks, Thornton, Hoffman...or any 2 of those 3 would be a dynomite combination for the late innings.

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Why get yet another old guy who's best years are behind him?

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Paws Up