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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:25 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
He could have pocket presence and slide up.


"Footbsll Speak". For you don't want to admit that it wasn't fumble. Nor was Fields the reason for the "Fumble"

It was definitely a fumble as it was ruled a fumble, I frankly don’t care who’s fault it is.

Yes you do.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:25 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Nardi wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
He could have pocket presence and slide up.


"Footbsll Speak". For you don't want to admit that it wasn't fumble. Nor was Fields the reason for the "Fumble"

Fumble, I believe, or else he'd be penalized for an illegal forward pass. The rest is semantics. Every QB gets the ball knocked out of his hand at some point or points in the season, but it is a fumble. And he has 3 so far in preseason. Even if NONE of them are his fault, it goes with the territory. Every QB is in the same territory, and it's a fact Fields is more fumbly than anybody in the territory.


No coach would blame a QB for "fumbling" on that play even if you believe that it was a "fumble".

What was it then? Forward pass? If so, can you blame him for the next illegal pass?


No coach would blame Fields on that play.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:26 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Nardi wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Nardi wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
He could have pocket presence and slide up.


"Footbsll Speak". For you don't want to admit that it wasn't fumble. Nor was Fields the reason for the "Fumble"

Fumble, I believe, or else he'd be penalized for an illegal forward pass. The rest is semantics. Every QB gets the ball knocked out of his hand at some point or points in the season, but it is a fumble. And he has 3 so far in preseason. Even if NONE of them are his fault, it goes with the territory. Every QB is in the same territory, and it's a fact Fields is more fumbly than anybody in the territory.


No coach would blame a QB for "fumbling" on that play even if you believe that it was a "fumble".

What was it then? Forward pass? If so, can you blame him for the next illegal pass?


No coach would blame Fields on that play.

So a fumble?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:27 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
He could have pocket presence and slide up.


"Footbsll Speak". For you don't want to admit that it wasn't fumble. Nor was Fields the reason for the "Fumble"

It was definitely a fumble as it was ruled a fumble, I frankly don’t care who’s fault it is.

Yes you do.

No I don’t and I literally can’t have discussions with you. Last week he didn’t throw an incomplete pass and this week he didn’t fumble, when every box score in the world shows both happened.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:46 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
He could have pocket presence and slide up.


"Footbsll Speak". For you don't want to admit that it wasn't fumble. Nor was Fields the reason for the "Fumble"

It was definitely a fumble as it was ruled a fumble, I frankly don’t care who’s fault it is.

Yes you do.

No I don’t and I literally can’t have discussions with you. Last week he didn’t throw an incomplete pass and this week he didn’t fumble, when every box score in the world shows both happened.


You're the kind of guy that Riddick is talking about. You are looking for anything to blame Justin Fields about.
That's where bullshit phrases like "Pocket Awareness" gets thrown in to justify the dislike. It's silly.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:48 pm 
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Personally, I don't want a jinxed QB.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:51 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Personally, I don't want a jinxed QB.


0 turnovers in the first 2 games. And statisticaly (with fewer weapons at his disposal) He's actually performing better than Caleb Williams thus far. Not that the "gurus" here bothered to actually notice.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:56 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
He could have pocket presence and slide up.


"Footbsll Speak". For you don't want to admit that it wasn't fumble. Nor was Fields the reason for the "Fumble"

It was definitely a fumble as it was ruled a fumble, I frankly don’t care who’s fault it is.

Yes you do.

No I don’t and I literally can’t have discussions with you. Last week he didn’t throw an incomplete pass and this week he didn’t fumble, when every box score in the world shows both happened.


You're the kind of guy that Riddick is talking about. You are looking for anything to blame Justin Fields about.
That's where bullshit phrases like "Pocket Awareness" gets thrown in to justify the dislike. It's silly.

If you don’t think pocket presence and time clock are extremely important factors for quarterbacks, this discussion is getting crystal clear.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 3:01 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
If you don’t think pocket presence and time clock are extremely important factors for quarterbacks, this discussion is getting crystal clear.


There is nothing you can use to measure "pocket presence". But I can see where a lineman can block the opposing player in order to keep opposing players off of the QB. "Pocket presence" is simply poppycock. And ironically (to illustrate your bias) you automatically assumed that the Fumble was on Fields without actually seeing the play. But you're "Mr. Objectivity" to hear you tell it.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 3:32 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
If you don’t think pocket presence and time clock are extremely important factors for quarterbacks, this discussion is getting crystal clear.


There is nothing you can use to measure "pocket presence". But I can see where a lineman can block the opposing player in order to keep opposing players off of the QB. "Pocket presence" is simply poppycock. And ironically (to illustrate your bias) you automatically assumed that the Fumble was on Fields without actually seeing the play. But you're "Mr. Objectivity" to hear you tell it.

You continue to prove your incompetence, anyone that knows anything about football including the all time great quarterbacks talk about it consistently.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 3:50 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
If you don’t think pocket presence and time clock are extremely important factors for quarterbacks, this discussion is getting crystal clear.


There is nothing you can use to measure "pocket presence". But I can see where a lineman can block the opposing player in order to keep opposing players off of the QB. "Pocket presence" is simply poppycock. And ironically (to illustrate your bias) you automatically assumed that the Fumble was on Fields without actually seeing the play. But you're "Mr. Objectivity" to hear you tell it.

You continue to prove your incompetence, anyone that knows anything about football including the all time great quarterbacks talk about it consistently.


Since you know so well, then how is it measured? And if it is all based on "pocket presence" then all offensive linemen are essentially "relative" correct?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:30 pm 
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:lol:
This reminds me of Les explaining the 3 technique.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:48 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
:lol:
This reminds me of Les explaining the 3 technique.


And you remind me of the types of callers that Julie Sweica used to get late night on the "Scooorrreee Sportsradio 670" to be honest.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:06 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
If you don’t think pocket presence and time clock are extremely important factors for quarterbacks, this discussion is getting crystal clear.


There is nothing you can use to measure "pocket presence". But I can see where a lineman can block the opposing player in order to keep opposing players off of the QB. "Pocket presence" is simply poppycock. And ironically (to illustrate your bias) you automatically assumed that the Fumble was on Fields without actually seeing the play. But you're "Mr. Objectivity" to hear you tell it.

You continue to prove your incompetence, anyone that knows anything about football including the all time great quarterbacks talk about it consistently.


Since you know so well, then how is it measured? And if it is all based on "pocket presence" then all offensive linemen are essentially "relative" correct?

Do you choose to not watch Box Scores and how “Official” scorers, score the game.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:12 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
If you don’t think pocket presence and time clock are extremely important factors for quarterbacks, this discussion is getting crystal clear.


There is nothing you can use to measure "pocket presence". But I can see where a lineman can block the opposing player in order to keep opposing players off of the QB. "Pocket presence" is simply poppycock. And ironically (to illustrate your bias) you automatically assumed that the Fumble was on Fields without actually seeing the play. But you're "Mr. Objectivity" to hear you tell it.

You continue to prove your incompetence, anyone that knows anything about football including the all time great quarterbacks talk about it consistently.


Since you know so well, then how is it measured? And if it is all based on "pocket presence" then all offensive linemen are essentially "relative" correct?

Do you choose to not watch Box Scores and how “Official” scorers, score the game.


Thanks for admitting that "Pocket Awareness" is something that really doesn't exist.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:23 pm 
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Where the notion of "pocket presence" was undoubtedly conceived.

https://youtu.be/_HHMGaTVAZ8?si=6SE62jF67_89bRJt

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:44 pm 
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I wish you all the best in the world you live in, and I really hope you are ok. You will now be the 2nd person in my life that I will not have discussions.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:50 pm 
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Pocket presence is primarily about footwork, spatial awareness, and, to a lesser degree, decision making. Fields struggles in all of those areas. Coming into the NFL, Caleb is good to great at 2 of those things. We'll learn more about decision making when the season starts.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:52 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Pocket presence is primarily about footwork, spatial awareness, and, to a lesser degree, decision making. Fields struggles in all of those areas. Coming into the NFL, Caleb is good to great at 2 of those things. We'll learn more about decision making when the season starts.

I have been fortunate to see it for years.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:54 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
Nas wrote:
Pocket presence is primarily about footwork, spatial awareness, and, to a lesser degree, decision making. Fields struggles in all of those areas. Coming into the NFL, Caleb is good to great at 2 of those things. We'll learn more about decision making when the season starts.

I have been fortunate to see it for years.

Yeah I get most of the Chiefs and patriots games too over the last several years.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:58 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Pocket presence is primarily about footwork, spatial awareness, and, to a lesser degree, decision making. Fields struggles in all of those areas. Coming into the NFL, Caleb is good to great at 2 of those things. We'll learn more about decision making when the season starts.


His college numbers suggest that Caleb Williams really isn't all that good at any of this however.
https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl ... 0in%202023.

Quote:
Caleb Williams has to get smarter in collapsing pockets: His 23.2% pressure-to-sack ratio and 3.6% turnover-worthy play percentage were both near the worst marks in the FBS in 2023

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Last edited by The Doctor Of Style on Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:00 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Pocket presence is primarily about footwork, spatial awareness, and, to a lesser degree, decision making. Fields struggles in all of those areas. Coming into the NFL, Caleb is good to great at 2 of those things. We'll learn more about decision making when the season starts.

Sound about right. Decision making seems to be decent... I think we saw it on his rushing td the other day. Went quickly through progression, directed his line and took off, wasn't touched. The pass to kmet also showed quick progressions. He was the third option I think.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:11 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Nas wrote:
Pocket presence is primarily about footwork, spatial awareness, and, to a lesser degree, decision making. Fields struggles in all of those areas. Coming into the NFL, Caleb is good to great at 2 of those things. We'll learn more about decision making when the season starts.


His college numbers suggest that Caleb Williams really isn't all that good at any of this however.
https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl ... 0in%202023.


Outside of fumbles and turnovers, which touch on decision making, there aren't any statistics that tell you if a quarterback has good pocket presence. You have to watch the game to recognize the footwork and spatial awareness of a quarterback. Caleb's footwork and feel inside the pocket are almost universally praised. Caleb's issue in the pocket is more about him home run hunting and being careless with the ball (not having 2 hands on it) while trying to buy more time to pass. Both led to unnecessary sacks and fumbles in college. He's doing a better job when it comes to keeping both hands on the ball in the preseason.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:18 pm 
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Nas wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Nas wrote:
Pocket presence is primarily about footwork, spatial awareness, and, to a lesser degree, decision making. Fields struggles in all of those areas. Coming into the NFL, Caleb is good to great at 2 of those things. We'll learn more about decision making when the season starts.


His college numbers suggest that Caleb Williams really isn't all that good at any of this however.
https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl ... 0in%202023.


Outside of fumbles and turnovers, which touch on decision making, there aren't any statistics that tell you if a quarterback has good pocket presence. You have to watch the game to recognize the footwork and spatial awareness of a quarterback. Caleb's footwork and feel inside the pocket are almost universally praised. Caleb's issue in the pocket is more about him home run hunting and being careless with the ball (not having 2 hands on it) while trying to buy more time to pass. Both led to unnecessary sacks and fumbles in college. He's doing a better job when it comes to keeping both hands on the ball in the preseason.


Even if I believed in the notion of "pocket presence" which I don't, there is no way to tell from 2 preseason games if Caleb Williams has it or not. There haven't been any blitzes or actual pressure from opposing defenses placed upon him. No collapsing pockets. The Defenses thus far have been extremely vanilla. There is no way to know if he has "pocket awareness". Especially considering that his best plays have come from outside of the pocket.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:22 pm 
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And here is the other and more relevant point. Statistically speaking Justin Fields has performed better than Caleb during the Preseason. Not that anyone would know from all of the bashing that goes on here where Fields is concerned. You'd never know that Caleb has only completed 50% of his passes from the nonstop love fest that has been bestowed upon him around here.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:40 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
And here is the other and more relevant point. Statistically speaking Justin Fields has performed better than Caleb during the Preseason. Not that anyone would know from all of the bashing that goes on here where Fields is concerned. You'd never know that Caleb has only completed 50% of his passes from the nonstop love fest that has been bestowed upon him around here.


You're free to be a Fields meatball. It's not going to reverse the trade or draft. Besides, I wouldn't personally celebrate a 3 year starter having a 78 rating, 5.4 yards per attempt, 3 yards per carry (outside of 1 run), and 0 touchdowns against plumbers the Bears backups destroyed on the road last week.

If Caleb fails to be better than Fields and (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky, he'll be run out of town as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:51 pm 
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Nas wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
And here is the other and more relevant point. Statistically speaking Justin Fields has performed better than Caleb during the Preseason. Not that anyone would know from all of the bashing that goes on here where Fields is concerned. You'd never know that Caleb has only completed 50% of his passes from the nonstop love fest that has been bestowed upon him around here.


You're free to be a Fields meatball. It's not going to reverse the trade or draft. Besides, I wouldn't personally celebrate a 3 year starter having a 78 rating, 5.4 yards per attempt, 3 yards per carry (outside of 1 run), and 0 touchdowns against plumbers the Bears backups destroyed on the road last week.

If Caleb fails to be better than Fields and (Pro Bowl QB) (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky, he'll be run out of town as well.


No one is actually trying to "reverse" the trade. That's done. However as a "long suffering Bears Fan" (which you undoubtedly are) you should hope that Poles has gotten this one correct. Because if he hasn't then that will be 10-20 years more of Bears suckage and having to duck Hawg and his bets because they aren't particularly good.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:58 pm 
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More liberal nonsense from lgbtq time guy. Does the guy (they/them) even realize he's saying four year vet Fields is playing better then two game rookie William's?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:59 pm 
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I'm as optimistic as anyone when it comes to the Bears future. Having bad to mediocre quarterback play hasn't stopped me from hoping that the next guy is the answer. That said, Caleb failing would likely feel as bad as losing the 2007 Super Bowl, but I'll move on.

If I ever become pessimistic about the Bears, I won't watch, and I won't likely be an NFL fan either.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 7:06 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
And here is the other and more relevant point. Statistically speaking Justin Fields has performed better than Caleb during the Preseason. Not that anyone would know from all of the bashing that goes on here where Fields is concerned. You'd never know that Caleb has only completed 50% of his passes from the nonstop love fest that has been bestowed upon him around here.

Fields has a higher completion percentage because he is throwing short passes because he can't throw.

Fields should be way ahead of Williams at this point. The fact that both stat lines are pretty similar is not good for Fields.

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