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The Boog Sciambi Debate

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Nardi

Post subject: Re: The Boog Sciambi Debate

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 9:41 am

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:19 pm
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JORR wrote:

Nardi wrote:

Again, The "singles hitter" was a doubles machine.

He wasn't a power hitter. That matters. I'm not sure why anyone would think Rose was a better hitter than say, Billy Williams, just off the top of my head.

Oh, I see. JORR the cookie cutter. Just field 9 power hitters. Game the system. Pervert the constitution of the game. Can't argue that. You win.

JORR wrote:

I don't think Rose can be separated from his image which is a big part of what makes people say he's so great and which makes him controversial as well. If you're going to tell me your view on Rose is completely based on performance and has zero to do with the "Charlie Hustle- he played the game the 'right way'" persona, I'm gonna say I doubt it.

Yep, I like Billy Baseballers. Spikes high. Drilling guys. 2b has to do a cartwheel for a DP or else bleed. Blocking home plate. I like all that shit. Guilty.

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JORR

Post subject: Re: The Boog Sciambi Debate

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 9:44 am

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Nardi wrote:

Oh, I see. JORR the cookie cutter. Just field 9 power hitters. Game the system. Pervert the constitution of the game. Can't argue that. You win.

I'm pretty sure nine Mantles would score more than nine Roses. But we'll never know.

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Nardi

Post subject: Re: The Boog Sciambi Debate

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 10:07 am

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:19 pm
Posts: 34374
pizza_Place: What??

JORR wrote:

Nardi wrote:

Oh, I see. JORR the cookie cutter. Just field 9 power hitters. Game the system. Pervert the constitution of the game. Can't argue that. You win.

I'm pretty sure nine Mantles would score more than nine Roses. But we'll never know.

We know.

Looks like the NBA woke up and consciously introduced more physicality into the playoffs hoping for some variety. Might have worked. Knicks fans have fallen in love with some low sabremetrics guy named Mitchell Robinson. Hope that doesn't piss off your sensibilities.

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JORR

Post subject: Re: The Boog Sciambi Debate

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 10:28 am

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Nardi wrote:

JORR wrote:

Nardi wrote:

Oh, I see. JORR the cookie cutter. Just field 9 power hitters. Game the system. Pervert the constitution of the game. Can't argue that. You win.

I'm pretty sure nine Mantles would score more than nine Roses. But we'll never know.

I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here. Is it that table setting role players are necessary and Pete Rose was a damn good one?

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Nardi

Post subject: Re: The Boog Sciambi Debate

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 11:19 am

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:19 pm
Posts: 34374
pizza_Place: What??

JORR wrote:

Nardi wrote:

JORR wrote:

Nardi wrote:

Oh, I see. JORR the cookie cutter. Just field 9 power hitters. Game the system. Pervert the constitution of the game. Can't argue that. You win.

I'm pretty sure nine Mantles would score more than nine Roses. But we'll never know.

I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here. Is it that table setting role players are necessary and Pete Rose was a damn good one?

Fun is the argument. It's a terrible argument from a logistics standpoint. The game has been bubble wrapped with rules, it's been coded in a lab, and 9 Billy Williams will beat 9 Pete Roses. It's fine. I'm left with yelling, "get off my lawn, boring ass Billy Williams, Pete Rose is coming over, spikes high, and then Pedro is going to drill him." Watching checkers isn't fun. Or maybe it's like that movie War Games where the WOPR plays a million games of tic tac toe and then shuts itself down.

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JORR

Post subject: Re: The Boog Sciambi Debate

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 12:26 pm

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We may not be disagreeing here. I'm not trying to eliminate Pete Rose types from the game. I just don't think they're as great as Frank Thomas types as far as hitting is concerned.

But I'm also not gonna sit here and bash the modern player for his narcissistic showboating and ignore all the showboating done by Rose.

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Nardi

Post subject: Re: The Boog Sciambi Debate

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 12:54 pm

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:19 pm
Posts: 34374
pizza_Place: What??

JORR wrote:

De-mysticizing Rose does a lot of harm, Religious Atheist. I have 'faith' the greatest team ever assembled isn't even CLOSE to the greatest team ever assembled without 14.

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This Ends in Antioch

Post subject: Re: The Boog Sciambi Debate

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 12:58 pm

Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:05 pm
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Nardi wrote:

JORR wrote:

De-mysticizing Rose does a lot of harm, Religious Atheist. I have 'faith' the greatest team ever assembled isn't even CLOSE to the greatest team ever assembled without 14.

What does Paul Konerko have to do with this?

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Chet Coppock's Fur Coat

Post subject: Re: The Boog Sciambi Debate

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2025 5:09 pm

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:46 pm
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JORR wrote:

Warren Newson wrote:

JORR wrote:

The Division wrote:

JORR wrote:

denisdman wrote:

I like traditional stats too, but I think looking at OPS or talking about BABIP is important to understanding the value of the hitter.

BABIP is supposed to be a pitchers' stat, i.e. all balls in play normalize around .300 so if a pitcher's BABIP is much higher than that we might expect that he has gotten unlucky and better days are ahead for him or if it is much lower we should probably expect that he has not been as good as it may appear. BABIP does not "normalize" for hitters. Some guys hit 'em where they ain't. Some guys hit a lot of balls right at the shortstop.

This says it's both: https://library.fangraphs.com/pitching/babip/

Think about that for a minute. McCracken ran the numbers and they indicated that all pitchers, given a large enough sample, have a BABIP against that is right around .300. That is to say that the difference between you and Nolan Ryan is really only walks, strikeouts, and homeruns. That was oiginally hard for fans to accept, but the numbers don't lie.

On the other hand, it's clear that guys like Pete Rose or Matty Alou have radically higher BABIP than Ed Hermann or Don Kessinger. It isn't that they got lucky. They directed the ball where fielders weren't. They were also fast to first.

It does have some value as a hitting stat. Mike Tauchman has a .370 BABIP right now. Everyone knows he's not a .370 hitter. Therefore, everyone knows is current BA/OPS is based on luck/small sample size.

That's not how BABIP works though. Tauchman isn't a .314 hitter because he isn't a .314 hitter. He has hit .314 over 35 AB at least once, probably more than once. He doesn't hit .314 over a large sample because he isn't that good.

BABIP is a pitchers' stat. BABIP normalizes around .300 for ALL pitchers, not for all batters.

BABIP does normalize for many hitters after a couple of years, but not necessarily at .300. If a guy has been in the league as a starter for 4-5 years, you can use BABIP to see if he's lucky/unlucky, and if a guy has been in the league longer you can use BABIP along with swing speed to see if he's not able to get good contact on the ball.

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