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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:01 am 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Ditka had more talent than any coach in the 80s and could only turn it into one championship. His teams were consistently outcoached by the other NFC "legendary" coaches: Gibbs, Parcells, Walsh. He ran a piss-poor offense despite the fact that offense was supposedly his expertise. All while acting like an embarassment.

Sorry, Ken. No sale.

So, besides acting like an embarrassment and switching the word offense with defense he's Tony Dungy?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
Ditka had more talent than any coach in the 80s and could only turn it into one championship. His teams were consistently outcoached by the other NFC "legendary" coaches: Gibbs, Parcells, Walsh. He ran a piss-poor offense despite the fact that offense was supposedly his expertise. All while acting like an embarassment.

Sorry, Ken. No sale.

So, besides acting like an embarrassment and switching the word offense with defense he's Tony Dungy?


Maybe.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:28 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
Ditka had more talent than any coach in the 80s and could only turn it into one championship. His teams were consistently outcoached by the other NFC "legendary" coaches: Gibbs, Parcells, Walsh. He ran a piss-poor offense despite the fact that offense was supposedly his expertise. All while acting like an embarassment.

Sorry, Ken. No sale.

So, besides acting like an embarrassment and switching the word offense with defense he's Tony Dungy?


Maybe.


Actually, now that I think about it, no. I don't think Dungy is a legendary coach, but 1.) he was tremendously successful at the coordinator level, 2.) NFL defensive schemes have changed tremendously on account of his influence, 3.) He has had a robust coaching "tree", from Herm Edwards to Lovie Smith to Omar Epps to Rod Marinelli and others. Not all those coaches have been successful, just like not everyone on the Walsh tree has been. But he's been a more significant coach than Ditka.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:32 pm 
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They're both pretty religious it seems.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:48 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Actually, now that I think about it, no. I don't think Dungy is a legendary coach, but 1.) he was tremendously successful at the coordinator level, 2.) NFL defensive schemes have changed tremendously on account of his influence, 3.) He has had a robust coaching "tree", from Herm Edwards to Lovie Smith to Omar Epps to Rod Marinelli and others. Not all those coaches have been successful, just like not everyone on the Walsh tree has been. But he's been a more significant coach than Ditka.

But, in your specific quote, it's nearly identical except for the obvious different conference name and different coaches.

He has clearly been outcoached by Belichick. You may say the same about Bill Cowher. Dungy was a defensive coach who has failed to field an adequate defense except for a great 4 game stretch the year they won the Super Bowl. If you add in his time at Tampa you once again see better teams losing to teams that aren't as good.

Also, isn't Monte Kiffin given as much credit for the defense as Tony Dungy was?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Here's another thought. If Ditka was so propped up by his assistants, then why isn't his coaching tree better? Shouldn't those brilliant assistants have gone on to success on their own?

Maybe Bill Walsh was just an idiot with a bunch of great assistants. How about that Bill. Suck on that.

edit - I forgot to logon as Meatball Fan for that one.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
Actually, now that I think about it, no. I don't think Dungy is a legendary coach, but 1.) he was tremendously successful at the coordinator level, 2.) NFL defensive schemes have changed tremendously on account of his influence, 3.) He has had a robust coaching "tree", from Herm Edwards to Lovie Smith to Omar Epps to Rod Marinelli and others. Not all those coaches have been successful, just like not everyone on the Walsh tree has been. But he's been a more significant coach than Ditka.

But, in your specific quote, it's nearly identical except for the obvious different conference name and different coaches.

He has clearly been outcoached by Belichick. You may say the same about Bill Cowher. Dungy was a defensive coach who has failed to field an adequate defense except for a great 4 game stretch the year they won the Super Bowl. If you add in his time at Tampa you once again see better teams losing to teams that aren't as good.

Also, isn't Monte Kiffin given as much credit for the defense as Tony Dungy was?


Dungy is also only 1-2 against the legendary Norv Turner in playoff matchups.

Ditka at least lost to HOF type coaches in the playoffs, I don't think Turner qualifies.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:24 pm 
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Like I said, I'm not convined that Dungy is some all-time great coach. Same with Cowher. One championship in 15 years might just be a blind squirrel finding a nut (although I wouldn't go that far with either.) Maybe the same with Fisher. I must admit, in all honestly, that I hold all three in must higher esteem than Ditka though.

I think Ditka is in the rare position where his greatest assistant was most definitely not part of his "tree". Unless you count Fisher, and I'm not sure you can, he doesn't really have one, except for the shitty names HV mentioned above. But now were moving into history, which apparantly I'm unqualified to talk about because I'm only 22.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:49 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Like I said, I'm not convined that Dungy is some all-time great coach. Same with Cowher. One championship in 15 years might just be a blind squirrel finding a nut (although I wouldn't go that far with either.) Maybe the same with Fisher. I must admit, in all honestly, that I hold all three in must higher esteem than Ditka though.

I think Ditka is in the rare position where his greatest assistant was most definitely not part of his "tree". Unless you count Fisher, and I'm not sure you can, he doesn't really have one, except for the shitty names HV mentioned above. But now were moving into history, which apparantly I'm unqualified to talk about because I'm only 22.

Give me your thoughts on Amos Alonzo Stagg, Halas and Lombardi! I'm waiting with baited breath....or until you look it up on Wikipedia :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :P

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Gibbs' Redskins, Parcell's Giants, and Walsh's 49ers. Even during the 80's seasons the Bears were good it could be argued they were the 4th best team talent-wise in the NFC.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:05 pm 
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Walt Williams Neck wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
Like I said, I'm not convined that Dungy is some all-time great coach. Same with Cowher. One championship in 15 years might just be a blind squirrel finding a nut (although I wouldn't go that far with either.) Maybe the same with Fisher. I must admit, in all honestly, that I hold all three in must higher esteem than Ditka though.

I think Ditka is in the rare position where his greatest assistant was most definitely not part of his "tree". Unless you count Fisher, and I'm not sure you can, he doesn't really have one, except for the shitty names HV mentioned above. But now were moving into history, which apparantly I'm unqualified to talk about because I'm only 22.

Give me your thoughts on Amos Alonzo Stagg, Halas and Lombardi! I'm waiting with baited breath....or until you look it up on Wikipedia :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :P


Considering where I go to school, it'd be kinda stupid to assume I don't know who Stagg is. For that matter, considering where I went to school, it'd be kinda stupid to assume I don't know who Halas is too. It's kinda stupid to assume anyone doesn't know who Lombardi is.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:11 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Walt Williams Neck wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
Like I said, I'm not convined that Dungy is some all-time great coach. Same with Cowher. One championship in 15 years might just be a blind squirrel finding a nut (although I wouldn't go that far with either.) Maybe the same with Fisher. I must admit, in all honestly, that I hold all three in must higher esteem than Ditka though.

I think Ditka is in the rare position where his greatest assistant was most definitely not part of his "tree". Unless you count Fisher, and I'm not sure you can, he doesn't really have one, except for the shitty names HV mentioned above. But now were moving into history, which apparantly I'm unqualified to talk about because I'm only 22.

Give me your thoughts on Amos Alonzo Stagg, Halas and Lombardi! I'm waiting with baited breath....or until you look it up on Wikipedia :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :P


Considering where I go to school, it'd be kinda stupid to assume I don't know who Stagg is. For that matter, considering where I went to school, it'd be kinda stupid to assume I don't know who Halas is too. It's kinda stupid to assume anyone doesn't know who Lombardi is.

No No college boy what type of coaches were they...the startegies they used.You comment on Ditka ...how many games did you watch him coach?????Shit I know of Frank Leahy but I could not comment on his coaching! Unlike you college boy!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Stagg ran a lot of wingback early but was critical to the success of the I-formation as well. He was an early purveyor of the shotgun (few people realize how old the shotgun is) and I believe was the first person to put a man in motion before the snap. Even in his I-formation, he was more a predecessor of the 50s wishbone and flexbone systems then he was of the power "T-formation" tupe running game. A modern day decendant of Stagg would be someone like Paul Johnson at Nebraska, although the system has been revolutionized quite a few times since then.

Halas was more in the style, especially early, of the classic power running game and the use of three lined-up backs to create blocking mismatches. Eventually this morphed into the classic I-formation, where the fullback leads for the halfback in blocking, instead of the misdirection-based Stagg I-formation where the A and B back would often hit different holes and the QB would either option or know before the snap which player was getting the ball.

Lombardi was probably the least innovative of the three, although he may have been the most successful overall. His style was closer to that of Stagg, in that the goal of the offense was to attack at the flanks, although by pulling guards and even tackles Lombardi sought to establish a power presence more than Stagg's offense.

There. No Wikipedia. No sources. Anything else on the quiz? Or is it my turn to play "stump the moron"?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:07 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Stagg ran a lot of wingback early but was critical to the success of the I-formation as well. He was an early purveyor of the shotgun (few people realize how old the shotgun is) and I believe was the first person to put a man in motion before the snap. Even in his I-formation, he was more a predecessor of the 50s wishbone and flexbone systems then he was of the power "T-formation" tupe running game. A modern day decendant of Stagg would be someone like Paul Johnson at Nebraska, although the system has been revolutionized quite a few times since then.

Halas was more in the style, especially early, of the classic power running game and the use of three lined-up backs to create blocking mismatches. Eventually this morphed into the classic I-formation, where the fullback leads for the halfback in blocking, instead of the misdirection-based Stagg I-formation where the A and B back would often hit different holes and the QB would either option or know before the snap which player was getting the ball.

Lombardi was probably the least innovative of the three, although he may have been the most successful overall. His style was closer to that of Stagg, in that the goal of the offense was to attack at the flanks, although by pulling guards and even tackles Lombardi sought to establish a power presence more than Stagg's offense.

There. No Wikipedia. No sources. Anything else on the quiz? Or is it my turn to play "stump the moron"?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:14 pm 
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He was an early purveyor of the shotgun (few people realize how old the shotgun is)
I am a dope I thought the 49ers did that ......please oh please tell me more......college boy!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:16 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Or is it my turn to play "stump the moron"?


Correction, Walt No Neck is a moron and an asswipe. They go together like a hand in a glove.

Carry on.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:28 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
Or is it my turn to play "stump the moron"?


Correction, Walt No Neck is a moron and an asswipe. They go together like a hand in a glove.

Carry on.

look at your bulls prediction jag! And it's Walt Williams Neck (jag squared)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:31 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Stagg ran a lot of wingback early but was critical to the success of the I-formation as well. He was an early purveyor of the shotgun (few people realize how old the shotgun is) and I believe was the first person to put a man in motion before the snap. Even in his I-formation, he was more a predecessor of the 50s wishbone and flexbone systems then he was of the power "T-formation" tupe running game. A modern day decendant of Stagg would be someone like Paul Johnson at Nebraska, although the system has been revolutionized quite a few times since then.

Halas was more in the style, especially early, of the classic power running game and the use of three lined-up backs to create blocking mismatches. Eventually this morphed into the classic I-formation, where the fullback leads for the halfback in blocking, instead of the misdirection-based Stagg I-formation where the A and B back would often hit different holes and the QB would either option or know before the snap which player was getting the ball.

Lombardi was probably the least innovative of the three, although he may have been the most successful overall. His style was closer to that of Stagg, in that the goal of the offense was to attack at the flanks, although by pulling guards and even tackles Lombardi sought to establish a power presence more than Stagg's offense.

There. No Wikipedia. No sources. Anything else on the quiz? Or is it my turn to play "stump the moron"?

Your knowledge amazes me please give me your Rockne thoughts! And by the way that was the biggest pile of shit I've read!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:43 pm 
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Here's more on the shotgun:

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2007/12/shotgun-gun-and-shotgun-spread-offense.html

Rockne ran his offense almost exclusively out of the shotgun. It wasn't an invention of the 49ers. But please, go on embarassing youself. Rockne's offense was very similar to Stagg's; most of his concepts were originally Stagg's, in fact. They borrowed (stole, whatever) a lot from each other.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:29 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Here's more on the shotgun:

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2007/12/shotgun-gun-and-shotgun-spread-offense.html

Rockne ran his offense almost exclusively out of the shotgun. It wasn't an invention of the 49ers. But please, go on embarassing youself. Rockne's offense was very similar to Stagg's; most of his concepts were originally Stagg's, in fact. They borrowed (stole, whatever) a lot from each other.

I love embarassing myself.Who was Red Hickey in the article you mentioned.And was there a better coach then Bud Wilkerson????

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:36 pm 
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Those names sound made up.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:46 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Those names sound made up.


bert harbinson?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:47 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Those names sound made up.

Another goof who lives in his parents basement!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:31 pm 
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I thought Bud Wilkerson had a parade named after him. Next you'll be telling me the guy who invented the reverse was Ron Mexico.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:25 am 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Stagg ran a lot of wingback early but was critical to the success of the I-formation as well. He was an early purveyor of the shotgun (few people realize how old the shotgun is) and I believe was the first person to put a man in motion before the snap. Even in his I-formation, he was more a predecessor of the 50s wishbone and flexbone systems then he was of the power "T-formation" tupe running game. A modern day decendant of Stagg would be someone like Paul Johnson at Nebraska, although the system has been revolutionized quite a few times since then.

Halas was more in the style, especially early, of the classic power running game and the use of three lined-up backs to create blocking mismatches. Eventually this morphed into the classic I-formation, where the fullback leads for the halfback in blocking, instead of the misdirection-based Stagg I-formation where the A and B back would often hit different holes and the QB would either option or know before the snap which player was getting the ball.

Lombardi was probably the least innovative of the three, although he may have been the most successful overall. His style was closer to that of Stagg, in that the goal of the offense was to attack at the flanks, although by pulling guards and even tackles Lombardi sought to establish a power presence more than Stagg's offense.

There. No Wikipedia. No sources. Anything else on the quiz? Or is it my turn to play "stump the moron"?

APTOS, Calif. -- Howard ''Red" Hickey, the National Football League coach who invented the shotgun offensive formation with the San Francisco 49ers, died Thursday, his son said. He was 89.

Jeffrey Hickey didn't disclose the cause of his father's death.

Mr. Hickey coached the 49ers from 1959 to 1963, going 27-27-1 before resigning three games into the 1963 season. He also played on the Cleveland Rams' 1945 championship team, was an assistant coach for the Los Angeles Rams' title club in 1951, and spent two decades as an assistant and scout for the Dallas Cowboys.

He made history in 1960 when he combined elements of a punt formation, a spread passing attack, and a double-wing formation invented by Stanford's Pop Warner into the shotgun -- so named by Mr. Hickey because it sprayed receivers around the field.

Can the AP be wrong ?????Must be according to college boy! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:33 am 
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Wouldn't be the first time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:40 am 
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Here's footage from the 1916 Rose Bowl game showing Brown working out of, you guessed it, the shotgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTA2w8aanPc&feature=related

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:20 am 
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IB, I'm curious.

Do you believe at all in an emotional aspect of the game? That it matters how emotionally vested one is in a particular game?

Or do you believe that all that is BS and all that matters is what a guy can physically do on the field?

I think I know your answer but wanted to ask anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:22 am 
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Ask Dick Vermeil if emotions get invovled. :cry:

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