Ok, there's just not enough Bulls talk on this board satisfy me, so of late I've been cheating on this board by reading RealGm's forum. A lot of interesting stuff, and a wide variety of thoughts on Bulls topics.

But here's one thing I found odd: that forum is high as fuck on Ben Gordon. In my mind, there was a general consensus among Bulls fans and the league in general that Ben was a prototypical 6th man: a guy you bring off the bench to fill it up. But now I come to find that, almost to a man, the members of that board are crossing their fingers/praying/sacrificing chickens in the hope that Ben re-signs with the Bulls. My thinking is that, in the short term, the Bulls will take a major hit if they lose Ben, but on the other side of the coin, he may not be a great long term option, and a fairly long-term, high-dollar contract (they're talking $10 mildo/year) could easily end up being regretted. I'm torn on the matter, and damn glad I'm not in the Bulls front office.

What say you?

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The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
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I would say bye-bye to Ben. You can find a much cheaper Dell Curry somewhere else.

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I'd rather lose Deng - as down the stretch a Salmons SF and Gordon SG combo was highly productive, but contractually, that won't happen.

Salmons is fine at the 2 until Wade shows up next year. He's a bigger, better defender than Gordon.

But here's the question, if you lose Ben .... do you have to keep Kirk?

Yes.

I am fine with Ben leaving town. Salmons can fill the 2 spot just fine.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Is there an option where we can go back in time and re-sign Gordon and tell Deng to go fuck himself (but not too hard because he might get hurt)?

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Yeah, didn't he have wrist issues already?

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

There's another interesting point I saw: a number of people on that board are of the opinion that a Rose/Wade backcourt is suboptimal, in that neither guy's strong suit is working off the ball. The contention is that they wouldn't make each other better.


Depends on what you would be trading Kirk for, and what you're drafting.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

I agree with them here. I really like Wade, but paired with Rose would not bring out the best in either of their game. They both need the ball in their hands to be effective.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I disagree. I think a Rose/Wade backcourt would wreak havoc. Wade is multi-dimensional enough that you cant say he needs the ball in his hand to be effective. And with both on the court at the same time the guards would be in the paint all day.

As for Gordon, I dont see that much of a difference between him and JR Smith or Jason Terry. He's a very valuable bench player, and could even develop into the modern day Microwave or Andrew Toney. But you still cant pay him $10 million/year and still be in the running for Bosh. Scoop Jackson brought up in an interesting point awhile ago that Rose's opinion should factor into their decision, and apparently he loves playing with Gordon and credited most of what he's learned this year to playing with him.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Who do they have coming off the books after this year? Brad Miller at about $12M? Tim Thomas and the ghost of Tim Thomas for about $12M total? That should be about $24-25M coming off the books. They need to have enough money to be able to offer a max deal, which if they offer Gordon $8M/year, that should leave them enough to offer Max Money, I think. Ideally, Ben's deal can pay him a ton this year and go down in value after that, kind of like how Kirk's deal is structured. That would also make him easier to trade in the future if needed.

All that being said, I'm still on the fence.

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"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

This brings up an interesting question: who is the ideal 2 to play with Derrick Rose. Is it just a catch and shoot guy?

Ray Allen
Kevin Martin
Michael Redd
Ben Gordon

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"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

Do you know how much they can offer Ben, not make any other moves, and NOT have to pay the luxury tax? If that's the case, then there's almost no way that they can keep him unless there's no other market for him. And Ben did a stupid thing the other day on Waddle and Silvy by saying that there's no way that he'd sign a deal in Europe. Now he can't use that as leverage...

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"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

How about a guy like Mikael Pietrus who can shoot the three and play D?

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"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

The Bulls have about $64 mil under contract, not including the 2 draft picks, but including Jerome James who may qualify for a medical exemption. The draft picks (16 & 26) will carry salaries of $1.6 mil and $1.0 mil. The luxury tax, according to Stern, will not be lowered in 2009 but might be in the following season (likely). Even so, working from $71 mil, there are only 2 ways to keep Gordon without exceeding the tax:

1. secure a league-approved medical retirement for Jerome James (Jerome gets his paper, but only 20% of his salary is reflected in the team's cap)

2. make a fairly large (financial) deal that would send out several more million than would come back

Obviously, option 1 would be the ideal play here, and was the primary reason for making the Larry Hughes trade with the Knicks in February. The fact that nobody is discussing it is a bit strange. Either the Bulls are quietly working this angle, the NBA reporters in this town are missing the scoop, or both.

Though option 2 sounds simple enough, when you look over the payroll, you'll quickly see that it's easier said than done. You'd either have to find a taker for Luol Deng (good luck with that), or you'd have to dump Kirk Hinrich for a pile of dogshit. Personally, I feel Hinrich is a nice complimentary player to Rose, moreso than Gordon even though Ben, in a vacuum, is the superior player.

Someone brought up the counter-point of Wade in the Olympics. Wade thrived without the ball in his hands there.


That's interesting; I hadn't heard that.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

There's no way that adding Wade doesn't significantly improve the team. To say otherwise would be just plain silly. That said, if given the choice, I would rather add Bosh or Amare given the fact that we already have Rose in place.

I agree. No doubt Wade would make this team way better, but I think adding a big man like Bosh or Amare would be even better. But I would settle for Wade.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I don't think anyone disagrees with that; Wade is a transcendent player. The worry is simply that you won't get the best out of either Wade or Rose by pairing them in the backcourt.


I want to add Bosch/Amare (preferably Bosch) in a trade, and sign LeBron next summer.

Aim high, I say.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

i can see the worry that wade might take away from rose's development as a player. its well known that wade likes to take over games and become the point. rose will have the ball in his hands alot less if someone like wade was one the team. not saying i wouldnt love to have the guy in a bulls uniform regardless. but i would like to see them get a dominant big man over another guard personally

Ray Allen can play defense. I would love to have a guy like Pietrius for the right price. Is he a UFA this summer?

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I see your point and most agree with it. I'd still rather have Wade then Bosh/Amare.. especially Amare. I know the big guys fill a bigger need for us, but to me Wade is significantly better than both of them to the point it tips the scale.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Im assuming you slept through last year's playoffs. Specifically the NBA Finals. Ray Allen is an above average defender, especially on SG's who dont have a post-up game. Kobe does have one and wasnt smart enough to use it and got hounded all series long by Ray.

Even this year when him and Gordon were battling all series long Gordon was getting very contested shots and making "WOW" plays. Ray was schooling Gordon on moving without the ball and got many more uncontested shots, especially the clutch ones down the stretch.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I remember in his younger years, he use to give Kobe a whole bunch of problems, but I don't know if he is still a good defender, he can't really run that well anymore... But I think he is dbag anyway, so I wouldn't want him on the bulls. Pietrius on the other hand would be a nice fit, but someone is probably going to over-pay for him...

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team Mully & Hanley
team Meatpants

What are you guys nuts? How the hell does this tie-in to the WEBIO scandal?

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Not the posters at RealGM. They insist he's a pretty good defender.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Im not talking about simply running around screens, although I disagree(not surprisingly). When does Gordon effectively run around screens? Ray Allen's clutch shot clinic in that series was partially due to the fact that he had wide open looks by 12-18 inch margins simply because Gordon couldnt chase him around screens, actually Kirk couldnt either effectively and I think he's a decent defender. Besides that Ray had a hand in Kobe's face Battier-style alot of the times, he played Kobe's game of grabbing jerseys and constantly poking at him and bothering him. Was it not clear that series that Kobe was visibly frustrated?

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I agree on all points. Ray Allen doesnt fit a need for us as a team or him personally. Also someone will overpay for Pietrius and probably Ariza too, although it's possible the economy will make GM's act semi-intelligently this summer.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'll have to start checking that website out. Im not sure how one could even make the argument that Gordon is a competent defender.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The consensus there seems to be that the Bulls #1 priority must be to open the wallet up for Ben, whilst fellating him and shining his shoes.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

The posters at that site are no different than the posters here. A handful of great contributors, a bunch of so-so ones, and a lot of garbage.

I've seen a lot of bad information/ideas there, along with far too many fire and passion types. You have to sift through a lot of horseshit to find good info.