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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:24 pm 
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The superiority of the AL has nothing to do with the DH and everything to do with the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox. They are by far the most aggressive teams in acquiring better players and have made the other teams in the league do the same to 'keep up with the Jonses'. The only way the NL can compete is if they develope a rivalry between two big spending teams that will lift the quality of play for the rest of the league.


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:26 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:27 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
The superiority of the AL has nothing to do with the DH and everything to do with the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox. They are by far the most aggressive teams in acquiring better players and have made the other teams in the league do the same to 'keep up with the Jonses'. The only way the NL can compete is if they develope a rivalry between two big spending teams that will lift the quality of play for the rest of the league.

Facts won't get in the way of the NL fans argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:29 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
The superiority of the AL has nothing to do with the DH and everything to do with the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox. They are by far the most aggressive teams in acquiring better players and have made the other teams in the league do the same to 'keep up with the Jonses'. The only way the NL can compete is if they develope a rivalry between two big spending teams that will lift the quality of play for the rest of the league.

Game over! We win. All praise to the AL!

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:36 pm 
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newper wrote:
The reason that the AL will be superior to the NL is that the AL can build the team with a pure hitter, zero fielder guy. The NL teams do not have this luxury... they are much more likely to carry a utility guy than a power hitter. If Thome played on a NL team, for example, you would expect him to get maybe 150 PAs a year, but the price tag on him would be the same as it would be on an AL team. You can argue that he can play first base, and that is a fine argument, but an AL team can do that as well and add another pure power, zero field guy. That's really the reason why the AL would continue to beat the NL for the foreseeable future IMHO.


Imagine two teams with payrolls of $100,000,000 each. That averages out to $4,000,000 a year for each person on a 25 person roster, but of course most will make less and a few will make more, including a couple making much, much more. Even the average DH is going to make more than that 4m figure. From there on out, the teams are exactly the same. The only difference is the 25th man on the NL team, which will make much, much less than the $4,000,000 amount.

Now, that difference in resources should be spread to other areas on the NL team, so that the $3 million per year (let's say) they save on DHs gets put towards better... something. Anyway, if the positions are properly valued, the difference should be completely minimal.

The one thing that makes me thing this might not be completely true is that AL teams don't compete against MLB teams at large, but instead other AL teams (in general; interleague play is still a very small percentage of the games played). It could be that, if you were to construct the best possible $100,000,000 roster, and you could choose to either have a DH or not have a DH, the most efficient use of resources would be to have a DH. If that were true, the NL would be locked into a natural inefficiency; the extra $3,000,000 (or whatever) simply cannot purchase the same value, per game, that the DH would. In same-league games, you wouldn't notice because all teams would work within the same inefficient paradigm.

In other words, the AL teams would be the better teams because they are allowed to assemble better teams. They literally play better baseball, and, given the price constraints present since both leagues compete for the same pool of players, the AL has a natural efficiency which can be exploited.

Now, I should also say that arguing that the DH is more efficient, and that the DH makes a better baseball team, does not mean that the DH is right for baseball (I'm not arguing it's not either). Imagine if next year the NL adopted a rule that said you could have the same batter bat over and over and over, and someone else would run. For example, the Cardinals would have Albert Pujols make 27 outs a game, and the rest of the team would be runners and fielders. The Cardinals would be much much better at hitting, much much better at defense (because that's pretty much all those players are good for now) and probably better at pitching (both because of the defense and because more resources could be moved towards pitching.) But that would be an awful game, and hardly the same as what we expect baseball to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:38 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
The superiority of the AL has nothing to do with the DH and everything to do with the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox. They are by far the most aggressive teams in acquiring better players and have made the other teams in the league do the same to 'keep up with the Jonses'. The only way the NL can compete is if they develope a rivalry between two big spending teams that will lift the quality of play for the rest of the league.


I don't think that can explain the whole difference however. Aside from the Yankees and the Red Sox, the payrolls of the two leagues are practically the same, and the AL superiority over the past few years hasn't only been a result of the Yankees and Red Sox.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:40 pm 
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The Yankees and Red Sox would still have roughly the same incredibly high payrolls even without the DH. So the 'keeping up with the jones' in the AL would still ring true.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:43 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
The Yankees and Red Sox would still have roughly the same incredibly high payrolls even without the DH. So the 'keeping up with the jones' in the AL would still ring true.


Your starting from the result and working backwards. We don't have a universe where the Yankees and Red Sox have a DH or a higher payroll; we have a world where they have both. The assumption would only ring true if the AL, as a whole, was better without the DH even with the higher payrolls. But we don't, so it's moot (in fairness, the same is true of the DH argument). Thus we're left working from first principals.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:46 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Will you say that the evidence is far too small when the AL dominates the NL for the next 50 years?


Oh Heavens no. I'll go so far as to laud you with praise for your brilliance, throw rose petals at your feet and host a gala ball in your honor. You be sure to come collect from me in fifty years. I should be easy to find as I won't have gone anywhere for at least the final ten or so of those years. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:47 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
kerchungathunk wrote:
Ummmm... no.
A five year trend does not make a strong case for forever in a game well over 100 years old. :lol:
Sadly, in pursuit of the all mighty dollar, I imagine that the NL will adopt the thrice damned DH rule and that will be the ultimate leveling of the playing field. Even without that, five years of evidence is far too small to have any confidence in saying the AL will "always dominate." That's just silly.


I guess you didn't bother to read the Baseball Prospectus article I posted.


Post it again and see if that works.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:50 pm 
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kerchungathunk wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Will you say that the evidence is far too small when the AL dominates the NL for the next 50 years?


Oh Heavens no. I'll go so far as to laud you with praise for your brilliance, throw rose petals at your feet and host a gala ball in your honor. You be sure to come collect from me in fifty years. I should be easy to find as I won't have gone anywhere for at least the final ten or so of those years. :lol:

No shit, I'll be the guy sitting next to K-man, both of us wearing depends, with spittle hanging from our collective chins...

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:50 pm 
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W_Z wrote:
if anyone cares about the "superiority" of the AL over the NL, that is really sad. one or the other has to happen: ditch the DH, or make both leagues have it.


BINGO!!!!
Jiminy H. Christmas, but the fact that some people give a shit about this utterly stupid arguement blows my mind.
It's pointless!
Unfortunately, you're right about the DH. In pursuit of "chicks diggin' the longball" and the subsequent dollars that brings, the DH will infest NL baseball soon enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:52 pm 
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All sports is pointless. I can think of far more pointless things to argue about in the sports world. I find it an interesting riddle.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:52 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
The superiority of the AL has nothing to do with the DH and everything to do with the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox. They are by far the most aggressive teams in acquiring better players and have made the other teams in the league do the same to 'keep up with the Jonses'. The only way the NL can compete is if they develope a rivalry between two big spending teams that will lift the quality of play for the rest of the league.

Facts won't get in the way of the NL fans argument.


You, of all people, shouldn't be getting uppity about facts. You've mangled enough of them for a bloody lifetime exemption from sensible debate. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:53 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The NL would lose it's only real advantage in that superior AL teams are unable to let the pitcher rest for the batting period. AL pitchers are not used to swinging bats and they get ired more easily. It is a testament to the dominance of the AL that they are able to overcome.

Will you say that the evidence is far too small when the AL dominates the NL for the next 50 years?

So....your reason why the AL is better is? Magic? The letter A is better than the letter N?


And I have to agree that the AL getting to carry a non-fielding power hitter on their roster is the major difference. Compounded by temporary, random fluctuations in league-wide talent levels.


Last edited by trickybeck on Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:53 pm 
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kerchungathunk wrote:
Unfortunately, you're right about the DH. In pursuit of "chicks diggin' the longball" and the subsequent dollars that brings, the DH will infest NL baseball soon enough.

What a sad day that will be.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:53 pm 
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kerchungathunk wrote:
W_Z wrote:
if anyone cares about the "superiority" of the AL over the NL, that is really sad. one or the other has to happen: ditch the DH, or make both leagues have it.

Jiminy H. Christmas, but the fact that some people give a shit about this utterly stupid arguement blows my mind.

How many posts have you made responding to it? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:54 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
The superiority of the AL has nothing to do with the DH and everything to do with the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox. They are by far the most aggressive teams in acquiring better players and have made the other teams in the league do the same to 'keep up with the Jonses'. The only way the NL can compete is if they develope a rivalry between two big spending teams that will lift the quality of play for the rest of the league.


I don't think that can explain the whole difference however. Aside from the Yankees and the Red Sox, the payrolls of the two leagues are practically the same, and the AL superiority over the past few years hasn't only been a result of the Yankees and Red Sox.


No, payroll doesn't explain everything. The Yankees and Red Sox have made other teams find different ways to compete. This is where the 'Moneyball' theories come into play.


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:55 pm 
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Just to post payrolls (from CBSSportsline):
New York Yankees $201,449,289
New York Mets $135,773,988
Chicago Cubs $135,050,000
Boston Red Sox $122,696,000
Detroit Tigers $115,085,145
Los Angeles Angels $113,709,000
Philadelphia Phillies $113,004,048
Houston Astros $102,996,415
Los Angeles Dodgers $100,458,101
Seattle Mariners $98,904,167
Atlanta Braves $96,726,167
Chicago White Sox $96,068,500
St. Louis Cardinals $88,528,411
San Francisco Giants $82,161,450
Cleveland Indians $81,625,567
Toronto Blue Jays $80,993,657
Milwaukee Brewers $79,857,502
Colorado Rockies $75,201,000
Arizona Diamondbacks $73,571,667
Cincinnati Reds $70,968,500
Kansas City Royals $70,908,333
Texas Rangers $68,646,023
Baltimore Orioles $67,101,667
Minnesota Twins $65,299,267
Tampa Bay Rays $63,313,035
Oakland Athletics $62,310,000
Nationals $59,328,000
Pirates $48,743,000
San Diego Padres $42,796,700
Florida Marlins $36,814,000

Someone feel free to add this all up -- the bottom four are NL teams, but then the next bottom four are AL teams... the top teams seem to be evenly matched between NL and AL.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:56 pm 
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Mr. Reason wrote:
kerchungathunk wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Will you say that the evidence is far too small when the AL dominates the NL for the next 50 years?


Oh Heavens no. I'll go so far as to laud you with praise for your brilliance, throw rose petals at your feet and host a gala ball in your honor. You be sure to come collect from me in fifty years. I should be easy to find as I won't have gone anywhere for at least the final ten or so of those years. :lol:

No shit, I'll be the guy sitting next to K-man, both of us wearing depends, with spittle hanging from our collective chins...


Oh hell, you've got high hopes indeed. I was trying to hint that I'll have been six feet under having finally kicked my oxygen habit for at least ten years. Having someone wipe my chin and ass instead would beggar my children and I don't want that. My wife will do the right thing and beat me to death with a frozen turkey leg, then thaw it and serve it for dinner. I just hope she waits for forty or so years to do it. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:58 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
kerchungathunk wrote:
W_Z wrote:
if anyone cares about the "superiority" of the AL over the NL, that is really sad. one or the other has to happen: ditch the DH, or make both leagues have it.

Jiminy H. Christmas, but the fact that some people give a shit about this utterly stupid arguement blows my mind.

How many posts have you made responding to it? :lol:


Stupidity irks me and I feel compelled to try and correct it. :P
<this is where you respond with the clever retort of "you must drive yourself nuts trying to fix yourself!" or something along those lines.>

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:59 pm 
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kerchungathunk wrote:
Jiminy H. Christmas, but the fact that some people give a shit about this utterly stupid arguement blows my mind.

Is that so? You have more posts in this thread on this subject than anybody else so far, Mr. Christmas.

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Last edited by Frank Coztansa on Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:59 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:01 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
kerchungathunk wrote:
Jiminy H. Christmas, but the fact that some people give a shit about this utterly stupid arguement blows my mind.

Is that so? You have more posts in this thread on this subject than anybody else.


See my response to BR. You're a pet project in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:02 pm 
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kerchungathunk wrote:
Mr. Reason wrote:
kerchungathunk wrote:

Oh Heavens no. I'll go so far as to laud you with praise for your brilliance, throw rose petals at your feet and host a gala ball in your honor. You be sure to come collect from me in fifty years. I should be easy to find as I won't have gone anywhere for at least the final ten or so of those years. :lol:

No shit, I'll be the guy sitting next to K-man, both of us wearing depends, with spittle hanging from our collective chins...


Oh hell, you've got high hopes indeed. I was trying to hint that I'll have been six feet under having finally kicked my oxygen habit for at least ten years. Having someone wipe my chin and ass instead would beggar my children and I don't want that. My wife will do the right thing and beat me to death with a frozen turkey leg, then thaw it and serve it for dinner. I just hope she waits for forty or so years to do it. :wink:

You should know by now, I am nothing, if not an eternal optimist. Can my scenario be defined as optimistic?

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:03 pm 
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If you people want to ignore facts, fine.

All I care about is that the Sox beatup on the NL this year, winning each series they played (with one still TBD).

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:05 pm 
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Only if universal health care becomes a reality and I'M NOT ABOUT TO START THAT ARGUEMENT HERE! :wink: :lol:
While we are comrades in arms over the heresy of the DH and the glory that is all things Cubs... 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
If you people want to ignore facts, fine.

All I care about is that the Sox beatup on the NL this year, winning each series they played (with one still TBD).


Liar. :lol: Your own post proves it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs/Sox part Deux
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Ignore the facts if you want. You'll just sound a whole lot sillier than you already do.

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