Rodney King would be proud, because I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Belvidere.

See, this means if you try, any of you stupid cocksuckers can be right once in a while. Just a bunch of fucking blind squirrels waiting to find Mr. Reason's nuts, the whole lot'a ya...

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We all have private ails. The troublemakers are they who need public cures for their private ails.- Eric Hoffer

I think what killed his arm was his poor mechanics. Whether he could have fixed the mechanics and still had that amazing curve ball is unknown.

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To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

One player beat Kerry Wood that day.
No player beat Buehrle that day.

On dominance:
27 up, 27 down. It can't get better than that.

A popup is no better or worse than a strikeout. Both are virtually guaranteed outs. The only thing that could happen with either one is that the ball is dropped by either the catcher or the fielder.

When a pitcher throws a perfect game, it is impossible for your team to lose.
When a pitcher throws 20 strikeouts, you can lose.

Both are great games, but if you asked any person if they would rather have the starter throw a perfect game or get 20 strikeouts the answer would be 100% for the perfect game.

I would guess that most power pitchers have never even gone out trying to throw 20 strikeouts in a game. I'm sure Nolan Ryan could have done it if he had wanted to multiple times. It just isn't a good idea to concentrate on one statistic.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Its foolish to say that 27 up and 27 down is second to anything.

Until this past Thursday, Kerry Wood had the best pitching performance in Chicago history. Not discounting that at all. I remember coming home from high school and watching the last few innings on WGN. It was an incredible performance. But when you retire all 27 batters you face, nothing can beat you. Absolutely nothing. Its called "perfect" for a reason...because you cannot get better than perfect.

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I never heard anybody claim Kenny Holtzman's no hitters or Joel Horlen's no hitter or Buerhle's 1st no hitter were superior in any way shape or form to Kerry Wood's 20 strikeout performance.

Like I learned from Jack Brickhouse......wheeeeeeeeeee.......this is a game of inches.....Whooooo brother......

If Wise runs out of room on that fantastic catch......this isn't even a debate.

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There goes one over the fence..Tru Link Fence..Beauty, Privacy Security....Call Tru Link.
Murph's Union 76 Truck Stop....A great Thanksgiving Tradition!!!!

WOO LIFE!!!!

There are 2 concurrent arguments going on here... 20 ks vs Perfect Game, and Kerry vs. Mark.



Clearly, a perfect game is better than 20 Ks. But I think it's just as obvious that when you compare the 2 pitching performances (not the defense, or anything else like that), Kerry's was better.


And the title of the thread is Buehrle vs. Wood.

How about Steve Stone being there for both games live? What a lucky guy.

If Kerry had anymore than ZERO baserunners that afternoon, it was not better.

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Mark's DEFENSE was better.

Why is a strikeout better than a popup or easy ground ball? What if Buehrle pitched 20 ground outs or 20 pop outs? Would that be dominant? The end result is the same.

Isn't the job of the pitcher to get the batter out and if he accomplishes that task 27 straight times it is incredibly dominant?

Kerry Wood's performance was a great thing but it redefines what is a great pitching performance away from what it is. Baseball games are not judged by number of strikeouts except in this circumstance. Pitchers are judged by how much they shut down the opposite team. Buehrle shut down everyone. Wood shut down all but one.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

So your entire basis for argument is that Buehrle almost giving up a hit is worse than Kerry Wood actually giving up a hit?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

BECAUSE


Buerhle could have pitched THAT EXACT SAME GAME, and had his defense been asleep, or not making superman catches in center, he could have given up a HR, a hit and a run. It's making the brutally obvious point that a perfect game is also a TEAM accomplishment. Not just Mark. The whole team had a hand in it.


Kerry's 20 Ks were all him. No other players needed. That's why KERRY was better than MARK (the title of the thread)... while the White Sox perfect game was better than Kerry's 20 Ks.

Kerry's hit could have been saved by a good defender... much like how a Mark was saved by a good catch.


The difference in the 2 plays is not the pitcher... it's the defender.

Buehrle could have given up a hit.
Wood did give up a hit.
So, by your criteria, any game in which someone threw more strikeouts than Buehrle did means they pitched better than Buehrle?

My guess is that criteria means that this wasn't even one of the top ten pitching performances Buehrle has ever had. I'm sure he's had higher strikeout games.

No one judges pitching performances by number of strikeouts unless it is convenient to the argument. Everyone judges them by runs given up, hits given up, and walks given up.

I'll ask again. Why is a strikeout better or more effective than an easy pop fly or ground out?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Because a strikeout is the only way a pitcher can Guarantee an out. Everything else is left to some amount of chance.

This is why Strikeout pitchers are coveted.

It wasn't though. It is Kerry's fault that he gave up a hit that the defender couldn't fix. He is not blameless in that equation. Could have doesn't matter.


Kerry Wood made a pitch and the result was a hit. If it was the defender's fault, they should change it to an error. If not, it falls on the pitcher.

With the way you are talking, the statistic ERA should be abandoned because the defender is actually the one giving up hits and runs.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

The statistic E.R.A. without qualifications is largely abandoned by baseball experts. Bapip and adjusted E.R.A. change things.


Oh and Wood's performance was more dominant. Buehrle's was more effective.

Both phenomenal.

RPB is the man.

Exactly. The last few posts have been interesting, but the bottom line is both were great performances and will go down in history as 2 of the best pitching performances of all time.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Wood hit a batter in the game so even IF the third baseman makes that play he still wouldn't have had a perfect game.

An easy popout or ground out can only be nullified by an error, just like a strikeout. If the catcher lets the ball go back to the fence.

Strike out pitchers are coveted because they are good pitchers who get people out. It isn't because a strikeout is better or worse than any other out.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No argument there. I can't say I am not enjoying this argument, because it's a good one.


But to completely ignore the fact that a Perfect Game is largely due to defense, and a 20 Ks is solely on the pitcher (catcher too of course) is sort of silly.

Which is why a perfect game is better than 20 ks.

And which is why Buerhle was better than Wood.

Kerry Wood allowed 200% more baserunners than Buerhle did.

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It's effectiveness vs dominance. Its also opinion. I mean some people were probably really impressed with GlenAllen Hills roof shot...but if someone hit 2 home runs in that game...they were more effective.

To me though the craziest thing about Buehrle is he does rely a lot on balls put in play, Like Greg Maddux. Maddux was quoted saying ill probably never throw a no hitter. Thats not the way I pitch. Buehrle is a lot like Maddux in this way...yet he has a no hitter and a perfect game.

Again...Both Phenomenal.

Thats just not correct Rick. I know your anti Billy Bean and Moneyball but Bill James proves this in his handbook on a yearly basis as well.

Strkeouts are better than other outs. I mean unless your old fashioned and dont believe in any SABRmetric stats at all.

Frank you're killing me. You can't be this dense to completely ignore the argument. At least Rick is putting some thought in it.



Mark + Defense was better than Kerry Wood. Which is why a Perfect Game is better than 20 Ks.

Qualify it with whatever you want, it is never the pitchers fault when a hit happens. Kerry Wood can blame his defense for the hit he gave up.

That is the argument being made here. They are saying that the only difference is that Kerry Wood's defense let him down, when I am saying that the only difference is that Buehrle was able to keep the ball within a distance that the defense could get the ball.

However, I will buy into your criteria.
What was Woods Bapip on that day?
What was Buehrles Bapip on that day?
The adjusted E.R.A. is obviously the same.


Only if you somehow value a strikeout more than any other kind of out. The only time I've ever heard this criteria is in regards to this game. Wood dominated 20 of 28 better. Buehrle dominated 27 of 27 better.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Over the course of a season, a strikeout is better than a regular out.

However, when you give up no baserunners, it isn't important. If Buehrle had 27 strikeouts, the end result would have been the same. A strikeout that results in an out is the EXACT same thing as a pop out or ground ball that results in an out.

One of the reasons that a strike out is better is because sacrifice flys can still score runs. That didn't matter in regards to this game. That is just one example of why in this discussion it doesn't matter.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

KABOOM!

When 20 guys strike out........not even putting the ball in play.....that is total dominance.

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There goes one over the fence..Tru Link Fence..Beauty, Privacy Security....Call Tru Link.
Murph's Union 76 Truck Stop....A great Thanksgiving Tradition!!!!

WOO LIFE!!!!