Guys, I'm sorry I'm posting more discussion on Bears running backs, but this Colts fan can't keep up with the mess. Maybe you guys can sort it out for me. I don't feel like sports talk radio even really has their finger on this quite right. I just sent this e-mail in to Mully and Hanley. I'm hoping for a response since Mulligan seems to know it all when it comes to Bears these days.

Bucket, Nas, Beardown...your thoughts on the following...

Guys,
Since OTA's, we've really never known who the #1 running back is on the Bears (Heck, I don't even know who is considered #1 right now), just how important does the Arizona Cardinals pre-season game become? Do you guys think that this game will most likely decide who wins the job? It's going to be hard for them to judge anything considering one of the backs will probably play against a second string defense more than the other. Was Benson's actions enough to already put him out of favor with the coaching staff? Thomas Jones hasn't had the most favorable comments either these past few days about the running back controversey. If you had to set the odds on each of these guys to win the starting job, what would they be? I'm sorry to ask all of these questions but anyone's head will literally spin when trying to sort out this mess.

Couldn't agree more Nas. I heard Benson will be ready on Friday too.. It sounds like suddenly these two are racing each other to get back to health and win the job because they both know its truly not theirs yet...

In my opinion, I’d say it’s about 60/40 in favor of Jones. If Benson were a late 1st or 2nd round pick, it’d be more like 80/20. The players clearly want Thomas, he’s had proven success here, and what’s most overlooked is that Jones is a helluva blocker in pass protection. My guess is that each of them will be nicked up at some point or another and will trade off who is the featured back. If they both stay healthy, though, my guess is Jones will get the bulk of the work and Benson will get a lot of 2nd half bruising, clock eating, lead protecting, shove it down your throat and like it, carries.

In 2004 Jones rushed for 948 yards, averaged 4 yards/carry, and had two runs longer than 20 yards. If you consider that great, you have really low standards. While he was considerably better in 2005, his 4.3 yards/carry hardly identify him as a great back. To be sure, he certainly didn't catapult himself into the ranks of the elite NFL backs.

In addition, you can predict with relative certainty that Jones will get hurt. While Jones plays hard and will play hurt, he misses games.

I don't see the 1-2 RB as a question. Both will deservedly get carries. The same will be true next year.

Jones may have been playing against stacked fronts, but that didn't stop the offensive line from opening up gaping holes on many occasions. One could reasonably argue that Jones should have run for more yards than he did. He was unable to do so, though, because he lacks elite speed and balance.

I love where this is going...the undercard - Tall Midget vs. Nastradamus.

And is Benson really playing Friday? Mully says he still hasn't had a "full contact" practice, so I doubt he'll go.

Great question. It hasn't been reported that way, but I heard Benson say he should be ready Friday....but what is his word good for?

I'm with Nas on this one TM.

Jones had a very good season in 2005. He has had one such season in a six-year career, but still failed to demonstrate elite speed or balance through gaping holes opened by the Bears offensive line. Further, you continue to tout his physical toughness when it emerged only last year. Though he's entering his seventh NFL season, he has yet to play a full year as a starter. You act like he's going to the Hall of Fame when he's had a less distinguished playing career than Brian Griese, whom you continue to denigrate. Like Griese, Jones has bounced around the league like a pinball. As you say, there must be a reason for that, right? By your own logic, Jones can't be that good, otherwise he wouldn't have moved around as much as he has, correct?

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Are you seriously saying you'd take Thomas Jones over LT or Portis? Please.

Nas--I notice you're no longer arguing that Jones has had TWO great seasons, but one. And even then you concede that he was only 9th best in total yardage and 5th best in yards/carry. Is that really your definition of greatness? If that is, fine, but he still has had only one such season that is undercut by a much longer record of inconsistency and injury. I think it's clear that--to this point in his career--he is obviously not a great back, and, indeed, may not have even yet enjoyed a single great season.

The world seems to be going with two running backs getting lots of carries. Is there any reason the Bears should be different.

I don't think Nas has made any comment that would make anyone think he is saying he could be HOF worthy TM. I think his point has been pretty valid, well thought out and with facts.

1)I have no idea why you're asking me about the Bears starter at running back. I have never offered an opinion on that topic. My only point has been that Jones did not have a great season in 2004 or 2005. And he didn't. As for who should start, I would like to see an open competition for the spot. Unfortunately, Jones, as usual, is injured and so is Benson. So we won't get that competition.

2)I have no idea why you think I'm switching my positions. I am not.

3)I have no idea why you think it's significant that Jones accounted for a disproportionately large % of the Bears offense in 2004. As you say, the team's offense sucked so he was a frequent ball carrier and receiving target. On a bad basketball team, someone still has to score. On a bad offensive team, someone will still accumulate yards. Even so, Jones averaged 4 yards a carry and totaled 948 yards as a ball carrier. If you think that's a great season, again, you have really low standards. Throw in his receiving stats and he had a good season, but not great. Further, his seven TDs do not compare to typical seasons for elite running backs like LT and Alexander. Defenses can stop Jones when they need to do so. While Jones has great value to the Bears, his overall impact on the league is obviously negligible.

4)I have no idea why you consider it a point in Jones' favor that he didn't start until 2004. He couldn't earn the job until he came to the Bears, who quickly tried to replace him with Benson. If he's a great back, why did it take him so long to earn a starting spot? And when he got one, why did the Bears immediately seek another back in the draft? Apparently Jerry Angelo and Lovie Smith didn't think he had a great 2004, either.

5)As for your question about my standard for a great season, I haven't answered your question because I don't have a fixed set of numbers. I try to evaluate running backs based on the opportunity they have to be successful. Based on this criteria, I'd say many backs in the league--start with LT, Alexander, Tiki Barber and work your way down from there--would have gained many more yards than Jones did last year. Jones lacks great vision, great balance, great instincts, great moves, great durability and great speed. He ran through a ton of huge holes--provided by a dominant run-blocking O-line that even made Adrian Peterson look good--and should have scored significantly more than 9 touchdowns. He is a nice player who had a good to very good season last year. That's about it.

6)I don't know how you can contend that Jones has had consecutive great seasons but still say that you would take Portis, Johnson, Jackson, LT and James over him. If he's had two great seasons, then hasn't he established himself as a great back? But if you'd rank him behind the five you mention--and, I'm assuming, guys like Barber, L. Johnson, Alexander and maybe even Dunn--then Jones is no better than the 8th, 9th, or 10th best back in the league, according to your own view. Do you really consider the 8th or 9th (or even the 6th) best back in the league great? If so, you have really low standards.

Wrong. The O-line opened huge holes for him and often left him with only one player to beat, but he frequently couldn't do it. A better running back like Alexander, LT, etc., would. The Bears had a bad QB, but an outstanding run-blocking offensive line. Jones didn't live up to their work.



Again, the Bears had a bad passing offense, but an excellent run-blocking O-line, so the idea that the Bears had a horrible offense isn't entirely correct. Jones had gaping holes to run through while many elite running backs are often forced to make plays for themselves. Tiki Barber, for one, does this pretty frequently, just like he did at UVA. Thomas Jones, who I have been watching since he also played at UVA, has never done this.

Further, you seem to be contradicting yourself in your comparison of Jones to James, Johnson, Tomlinson, etc. First you said you wouldn't rank Jones ahead of them, but now you're implying that you would because he had a better YPC than they did, but played in a worse situation. So you're saying that Jones outplayed these guys last year, right? So if he played better--and has had two outstanding years in a row--then he is as good or better than they are, right? If not, why not?



I don't follow your logic here. Barber had more yards and the same amount of TDs as Jones, so Barber is worse than Jones? My point was that Jones didn't have a great season in terms of YPC, total yards, or touchdowns. You have done nothing to dissuade me of this view.



Your logic is faulty here. A great passing offense doesn't necessarily mean a running back is the recipient of great run blocking--as Thomas Jones was.



You have no idea why he couldn't start for Tampa or Arizona? How's this for an answer: because he wasn't good enough or healthy enough--that's also why the Bears want to replace him now.

You seem to be equivocating in your defense of Jones. You say he's played great in his only opportunities to start--and has out performed a slew of top backs--but he is not a great player. If he's two for two in terms of delivering greatness when he's been given the opportunity, why can't you call him great? Why doesn't he rank with the elite backs in your view? Where do you rank Thomas Jones as an NFL back after his two consecutive great seasons?

From what I've seen it's a no lose situation on who starts between these two. I think Benson would have a slightly better season rushing the ball. Benson will get 1450 if he plays all 16 games. Jones would get about 1300. I think Jones is the better blocker at this point and I haven't seen enough of them throwing the ball to Benson to tell if he can do it. Jones is an above average receiver. We'll need them both in the end.

I don't think he'll play 16 games either. Few back do. But 1450 comes out to about 90 yards a game. If you think about that, with this offensive line, that's very possible. Jones got 1300 last year and I think he missed 2 games. We have a good defense so this team won't ever have to make huge combacks so that's why I think 90 yards a game can be done by Benson. That's assuming he's getting 22-25 carries.

Nas--

I'm not sure why you think YPC means "everything" to me. Never said it. Never implied it. I have pointed out that I don't think Jones was great in terms of YPC, total yards, or TDs. Do you think that a 4.3 average, 9TDs and 1300 yards are great numbers? They're not historically speaking and only his YPC was close to elite for last season, although it was way below the league leader and is only relatively, not objectively, strong. So looking at these flawed statistical measures alone, he wasn't great. Your counter is that "he's in the top ten", but that's just the top 1/3 of the league. If you consider being #10 in TDs and #9 in yardage great, then you have really low standards. To summarize, Jones' numbers are not great historically (looking at RB production over the decades) or relatively (comparing him to other RBs in the same season). As for the % of total offense argument, that's just a weak point given the lame passing offense for the Bears.

But I really don't care that much about the stats. Rather, I'm basing my opinion of Jones much more on what I saw from him the last two years and in college. Simply put, he has 0 elite RB skills. He does not create his own runs and rarely beats defenders in the open field. And contrary to what you contend, he had plenty of one-on-one situations where he simply wasn't physically gifted enough to win a battle.

As far as the relationship between the passing and running game goes, sure, a sound passing game should dictate that defenses play fewer eight-man fronts. But a 7-man defensive front doesn't necessarily mean an offense will open a huge hole for a running back. And an 8-man defensive front doesn't mean an offense can't open huge holes. The Bears O-line was a dominant run-blocking unit last year, creating vast openings for Jones in spite of facing 8-man fronts, so your point about the passing game is irrelevant. A successful running attack is, after all, much more dependent on sound run blocking than it is on a good passing attack.

Again, my opinion about Jones is hardly novel. Arizona and Tampa let him go, and the Bears sought to replace him almost immediately after acquiring him. There is no objective measure by which Jones can be considered great, and there is no authoritative opinion that suggests he was great in 2004 or 2005. There is only your argument, which relies on a trivialized standard of greatness as its foundation.

I agree with you Midget. Jones got the yards that was there to be had. Not much more. That's not a knock but there are 12 backs in this league better then him that would have done better with the Bears last year. Nas listed a few above a little bit ago. He's not special and he can't get any better.

I didn't say 12 backs had a better season then him last year. I meant that going into this season there are 12 I'd take over him. Some of those guys were injured last year some didn't have the luxury of having a great offensive line. Some backs didn't have a great D that always kept them in games. So they didn't have to abanden the running game. We had 4th quarter leads alot and could run the clock out.

Here are the 12 that I'd take over him this year Nas. You'll argue with some I'm sure but there all better in my mind.

Tiki Barber

Tomlinson

Larry Johnson

Deuce

Reggie Bush

Alexander

Edgirin James

Clinton Portis

Rudi Johnson

Steven Jackson

Warrick Dunn

Cadilack Williams

Fine. There are 30 starting backs in the league. 15th ranked would be average. That means you rank Jones as a slightly above average back. I would too. See Nas in the end we agree. LOL.

yeah...
that would solve our problems....
reggie bush, thomas jones, and benson....and the rookies, and peterson.
the bears would be to RB's as the Lions are to WR's (not woodridge ryan).

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@audioidkid

I read pretty well. Unless you have your own personal NFL team, that reads as: "The Bears should have...."

I'm not saying nothing, I'm just saying...

Bottom line is that we aren't getting any other backs here so we're stuck with these guys. We need both backs to get their heads out of their asses and be healthy and productive this year.

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Thanks V....
I thought as much.

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@audioidkid

you go. i'm good.

the bears had a top 5 pick in 2006?
what year are you in?

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@audioidkid

Ditka.....

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@audioidkid