How the hell can you compare vorp when Vorp is calculated based on position? They're not the same statistic.
VORP scores ALSO DO NOT MEASURE DEFENSE! That's a pretty big part of REAL DAILY baseball ain't it?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I'll take this as an answer that if you could only have one of the two that you'd rather have Sandberg over Thomas.

Do you also think Gordon Beckham is a better BASEBALL player than Albert Pujols?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Dude, if I'm in the National League, yeah, I take Ryno.
If I'm in the American League, and don't need an infielder, I take Thomas.
This is not an apples to apples argument.
No, I think Bacon is overrated anyhow. Albert also plays his position pretty well. And will most likely for years. I don't think Frank would have had that in him.

OK... 5 tools, tell me who's best in these between Thomas and Sandberg. Fill in the blanks please.

Running Speed:
Arm Strength:
Hitting for Average:
Hitting for Power:
Fielding:

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

None of you have even accounted for grindiness. Thomas never grinded a day in his life!

I can see the argument in the NL but I think you are way off in the AL. It's not that hard to find someone who can play decent defense for you.

The thing is that Average and Power are clearly for Thomas. Fielding and Running Speed are for Sandberg. Arm Strength means almost nothing for a 1st basemen given the job basically involves throwing the ball back to the pitcher more than anything else.

If I need someone who is fast on the bases I can find a million guys. Fielding is harder to replace. However, the hardest two things to replace in there are the hitting "tools".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

ruben rivera had better tools than either of them.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

The emotional bitchiness displayed by some people here continues to amuse the shit out of me it's ALWAYS a Cubs vs. Sox argument - ALWAYS. Some peoples' panties are in a bunch about this when there is a real argument that needs to be taken into consideration when discussing the overall relevance of the DH - Hitting is one very important aspect of the game, it's how you score runs. I really don't think that you'll find anyone disputing this, and I don't think that anyone in this thread has done up to this point. That's why it is a FACT that no mlb player has EVER won an MVP award in a season in which their primary position is DH. That's why a great hitter like Edgar Martinez may not make the Hall of Fame - it's still an EXTREMELY valid argument, because an mlb season is NOT a damned Home Run Derby - it's a game consisting of defense and baserunning as well. Furthermore, not all World Series winners had the greatest offensive players, strategy and defense do become huge factors

How does one measure grindiness?

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all this shit has already been statistically studied, quantified and evaluated by statisticians. it's fairly obvious to all but the mentally retarded that thomas is more valuable.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Average is not "clearly" for Thomas. They're only like 14 points out of 1000 different. Thomas didn't have the wear and tear of fielding every single day to deal with. First basemen have to make several throwing plays too. Not just to the pitcher. DP situations, Relay situations.
Finding someone speedy on the bases isn't addressing the problem. Find me a guy who wins 9 GG's and his 14 point difference in BA over 14 seasons loses some of it's shine. The Power isn't disputed. Thomas we agree is a better hitter overall, most distinctively in power, but, Ryno is a better all round player. Offense is half the game, Rick.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Nice attitude dick.
If statistics were the truth of worth, then the Cubs would have won the world series by now. Since games are actually played on a field, statistics do no fully define a players worth, particularly when said statistics only encompass 50% of the game. Do you know what the VORP is or do you just bleat "Statistics!!!" when it's convenient?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

not even close.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

who cares about VORP?

We're talking wins above replacement (WAR).

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Sandberg is my favorite player of all time. Given a choice in their primes, I'd pick Thomas.

Thomas was one of the best right-handed hitters of all time for a decade. Those numbers are epic and not "artificially induced". His later years diluted his career statistics. But, I'd take those 10 years versus just about anybody elses.

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You know me like that.

Really? So what are those 9 of 10 guys doing on the field generally?
Does the chances for the offense to get on base have anything to do with the quality of defense?
Why don't you just sit this one out? Stick to some more name calling, maybe, those slurs you threw out there earlier actually add to your credibility.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

so half the game is hitting, half is fielding. the third half must be pitching.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

When was the last time that Frank Thomas's game featured pitching?
Or Rynos?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

The numbers Thomas has are hurt by the end of his career. In 16 years with the White Sox, Thomas hit .307. In 15 years with the Cubs, Sandberg hit .285. I'm sure if Sandberg had played 19 seasons his numbers would have suffered too. That's why it's better to compare those numbers even though the 16th year that Thomas played was his worst in a Sox uniform.

That number is .22. That's a big difference. Add in OPS and SLG and the gap widens considerably.

Why is this relevant? Different positions have different issues. Swinging as hard as he did and working out as much as he had to also leads to wear and tear.
By this same criteria, please tell me where you rank Albert Pujols. I would imagine that on a scale that equally weights the five tools above that Pujols doesn't make the top 10 and possibly isn't one of the top 50 players in the league. After all, ANY player that is better at fielding, base running, and arm strength has him beat.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Exactly. Again, we're not talking about Home Run Derby, baseball is very much about the defensive aspect of the game. I don't think anyone here is going to argue against Thomas' first 5 monster seasons - he was truly an amazing offensive threat. The 5-year old type of insults are to be expected from certain factions that are offended if you DARE say anything about someone associated with their team

VORP and WAR doesn't really calculate the value over a real player. It features the value over a slightly less than average player, and the number itself doesn't take into consideration what the needs of any particular team might be.
All things being equal, rules for all leagues being the same, DH being available for everyone, I suppose I would take Thomas over Sandberg if he could play DH every day. I'm looking at this argument coming from a Cubs perspective where he would not be able to benefit from the DH rule. Thomas was NOT as valuable to the Cubs as Sandberg was. Sandberg would not have been as valuable to the Sox as Thomas was.
We all agree. Thomas was a better hitter.
Sandberg was a better fielder.
This is a pretty good reason why we need to have identical rules between leagues. The difference in rules changes overall player worth.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

this is pretty much /thread

I'm a lifelong Cubs fan and grew up idolizing Ryno but I wouldnt even hesitate to take a prime Frank over a prime Sandberg. Frank's numbers are in the conversation with many of baseballs all time greats

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"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."

Oh. So we can go ahead and eliminate statistics that don't relfect favorably on the end totals?
Those we can just toss because they dilluted his overall standings?
Look, he played those years, the numbers count. And again, it's a small difference over 16-19 seasons.



It's relevant only in the sense that Frank didn't have the same disadvantages that Ryno had in relation to their offensive game. Frank didn't have to do a lot of diving (some say Sandberg didn't either ) and deal with the fielding injuries factoring into his offense. I know he played 1k or better games at 1st so don't get me started but I think it can be universally agreed that not having to play defense gives you a slight boost in your offensive potential.


I think that Pujols is a decent 1st baseman. I don't know much for his arm strength, but damn he's got pretty much everything else in the bag. Plays D every day. Elite player in the league.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

One point not made is the weight given to defense in this argument. 2B is not one of the positions where defense can partially counterbalance offensive deficenies easily. Teams accept lesser hitting talents in catchers, shortstops and centerfielders. Second basemen are usually shortstops with limited range or 3B with poor arms/fast twitch muscles.

I really cannot understand why Cub fans would not put their best argument forward in a comparison against Frank. I don't think Sandberg is the best Cub of my lifetime.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Let's hear it.

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You know me like that.

Difficult to compare the 2 players since they can't really be measured on the same scale...so I won't. I find it interesting, though, that all the Frank Thomas anti-HOF crowd are so concerned with the fact that he played a little less than half of his career at 1st base. If defense was so important, you would think more than 1 first baseman with a gold glove would be in the Hall of Fame. I realize the award did start until 1957. But still, thats over 50 years of baseball... and only 1 guy (Eddie Murray)? I guess it's only important when it fits the argument.

BOOM!!! Steak Dinner!

You will not like it but at the very least Sammy was better than Sandberg.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

oh for god's sake...

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

He doesn't count.

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You know me like that.

He's already won a gold glove at first base...holds the MLB record for assists for a 1B in a season...he had good arm strength early in his career when he played 3B and later LF, but I believe it was before the 2003 season that he had arm surgery. He still played LF for much of the season, but I don't think his arm strength was the same after that.