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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Let me give you the quick version of Steve's post:

Everyone on the White Sox either sucks or is overpaid or is both.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Let me give you the quick version of Steve's post:

Everyone on the White Sox either sucks or is overpaid or is both.



Not at all. I think Paul Konerko is a very good hitter. I wouldn't re-sign him because of age though. I like Floyd and Danks a lot and neither is overpaid. Matt Thornton, segio santos and J.J. Putz are all guys I like, even if they have had a couple hicups of late. I think Alexei Ramirez is outstanding. he isn't overpaid either.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:08 am 
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They would be crazy to get rid of Ozzie. He is so perfect for everything Uncle Jerry wants.

Kenny can pick up his tough guy walking papers anyday of the week. Kenny does a good job of birddogging, making calls, harassing people, etc, but Reinsdorf, Hahn and others are the ones evaluating guys as much or more than Kenny does.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:01 am 
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Bob Loblaw wrote:
Turd Ferguson wrote:
I happen to think that Kenny does a good job and I hope that he stays (which he will).

For those of you who who want him gone, I am just curious as to who you think would be a better GM. There are 29 other GMs out there and I really cannot think of too many that I would like to have.


In regards to Kenny, keep in mind:

In November 1992, Williams rejoined the White Sox organization as a scout. Named special assistant to Sox chairman Jerry Reinsdorf in 1994, he spent some time as a studio analyst for Sox games on SportsChannel Chicago before becoming the team's director of minor league operations in 1995. In 1997, he was named vice-president of player development, a position in which he remained until 2000. In November 2000, Williams replaced Ron Schueler as the general manager.

So basically over the last 17 years, he has scouted for the Sox, directed the minor league system, was in charge of player development and is about to finish his 9th season as GM. What players did he develop in 17 years? Not too many. How is our farm system? Not too good. How is our payroll flexiblity? Not too good. 17 years of this guy, I think I've seen enough. He is what he is, and that's not good.

Also here's a nice article ranking the Sox 29th out of all 30 teams on how each team has fared over the past 10 years in the draft.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/w ... index.html

What's an example of a good GM? Here's just a few with a litte wiki-info.

Michael Hill is a Vice President and the General Manager of the Florida Marlins baseball club. Hill was promoted from his position as a Vice President and Assistant General Manager to the General Manager position on September 29, 2007. He went to Harvard and was drafted in 1993 by the Texas Rangers. He joined the Tampa Bay Devil Rays front office in 1995 and then went to the Colorado Rockies before joining the Marlins.

Andrew Friedman is the Executive Vice President of Baseball Operations for the Tampa Bay Rays franchise in Major League Baseball. In that position, he acts as the team's General Manager. From 2004 to 2005, Friedman served as the Director of Baseball Development for the Rays. Friedman was promoted to his current position after the 2005 season, at the tender age of 28, replacing the club's first General Manager, Chuck LaMar, who was fired following the club's 8th losing season in its 8 years in existence.

Tony Reagins is the general manager of the Los Angeles Angels of American Major League Baseball. He is only the fourth African-American General Manager of a Major League Baseball club in history (preceded by Bill Lucas of the Atlanta Braves, Bob Watson of the Houston Astros and New York Yankees, and Kenny Williams of the Chicago White Sox). He was promoted on October 16, 2007, having previously held the position of director of player development since 2002.

Rubén Amaro, Jr. is the General Manager of the Philadelphia Phillies.He is also a former Major League Baseball outfielder who played from 1991 to 1998. He is the son of former infielder Rubén Amaro, Sr.. He was named General Manager of the Phillies on November 3, 2008, succeeding Pat Gillick.

Pat Gillick, was the general manager of four Major League Baseball teams. He guided teams to three championships in his career: 1992 and 1993 titles with the Toronto Blue Jays, and a 2008 title with the Philadelphia Phillies.



Good Post and a good thread on Kenny from like a year ago


http://score670.com/phpBB/posting.php?mode=quote&f=33&p=604477


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:20 am 
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Much like cocaine is God's way of telling people they have too much money, Jim Thome is God's way of telling people named Guillen they don't know nearly as much about baseball as they think they do.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:23 am 
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I bet Guillen knows that the NFL is more popular in the USA.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:27 am 
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Guillen doesn't know how to tie his fucking shoes.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:33 am 
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If Ozzie really did put an end to the discussion to resign Thome then it may be time for him to go. It is proving to be a major mistake not only because Thome has had a good season but because the replacement has been significantly worse.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:40 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If Ozzie really did put an end to the discussion to resign Thome then it may be time for him to go. It is proving to be a major mistake not only because Thome has had a good season but because the replacement has been significantly worse.



I agree. And the fact that he doesn't understand why is maddening. I don't necessarily think Ozzie's concept of having a bunch of guys who he can move around is bad, but they have to be able to hit. I don't think failing to bring Thome back was, in and of itself, a bad idea. He's old and has had back problems. But his stick needed to be replaced. If they had signed a guy like Abreu and he had a bad year, I wouldn't be complaining.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:42 am 
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I think Ozzie understands it, but I also think that he has faith in his team and he doesn't want his players to think he has lost confidence in him. I'm sure he realizes that it was the wrong move, but I also think he realizes that this is the team he has and he is going to sink or swim with them.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:17 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
I think Ozzie understands it, but I also think that he has faith in his team and he doesn't want his players to think he has lost confidence in him. I'm sure he realizes that it was the wrong move, but I also think he realizes that this is the team he has and he is going to sink or swim with them.

This right here is damning. Fuck the players. I'm (especially as a Cubs fan) so goddamn sick and tired of players feelings. I want an ass kicking "fuck you" kind of manager, and I don't need Stuart Smalley running a MLB team.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:21 am 
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This is different than a "Derrek Lee deserves to hit out of the 3 hole"

This is Ozzie having confidence in the team he has right now rather than come out and say "I would rather have Jim Thome." He probably would, and maybe he feels that way, but he is not going to say it publically.

Ozzie can be that FU manager. He has gotten in guys faces. I pointed that out earlier with regard to Swisher and Jenks are certain points. As tough as the last 2 losses have been, the Sox have faught back both games. They were down 4-0 yesterday right out of the gate and didn't just roll over.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:25 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
This is different than a "Derrek Lee deserves to hit out of the 3 hole"

This is Ozzie having confidence in the team he has right now rather than come out and say "I would rather have Jim Thome." He probably would, and maybe he feels that way, but he is not going to say it publically.

Ozzie can be that FU manager. He has gotten in guys faces. I pointed that out earlier with regard to Swisher and Jenks are certain points. As tough as the last 2 losses have been, the Sox have faught back both games. They were down 4-0 yesterday right out of the gate and didn't just roll over.

Come one Frank, let's not change history.
How would endorsing Thome in the off season when Oz pretty much said he didn't want him cause the rest of his players to think he lost confidence in them? I mean, he was one of those "clubhouse" guys, right? Everyone liked him, it seems, except for Ozzie.
I remember talking about this with you in february... I'm no Saux fan and even I knew that losing Thome was a huge mistake, Williams knew it, shit I think pretty much 4.5 billion humans knew it, the only one who DIDN'T want Thome, for reasons impossible to explain, was Ozzie.
And getting in Swishers face is nothing special. I bet that 4.4 billion humans wouldn't mind punching him. Most punchable face outside of that fruit Michael Sera.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:33 am 
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I thought Frank meant that Ozzie realizes now that not bringing Thome back was a mistake but he can't really say that.

I think Ozzie is as good as it gets when it comes to "leading" his team and that's probably more important than strategy. But his offensive philosophy is fucked up. That running game isn't working. The Sox play every game with two or three less outs than the opponent. Last night Capps was in deep trouble. He had faced three batters without recording an out. So to move a good baserunner from second to third he gives away an out. The numbers show you should NEVER sacrifice runners from first and second to second and third. If you don't think Vizquel can get a hit there, get someone else up to the plate. So now, the struggling pitcher has one out and he breathes a little easier. He takes the bat out of the three hole hitter's hands and gets a slow guy to ground into a double play. Maybe they score five if they don't have Vizquel make out on purpose and we aren't having this conversation. Maybe Vizquel hits into the double play. Who knows? But what we do know is that over time, you're going to score more without the bunt.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:25 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I thought Frank meant that Ozzie realizes now that not bringing Thome back was a mistake but he can't really say that.

I think Ozzie is as good as it gets when it comes to "leading" his team and that's probably more important than strategy. But his offensive philosophy is fucked up. That running game isn't working. The Sox play every game with two or three less outs than the opponent. Last night Capps was in deep trouble. He had faced three batters without recording an out. So to move a good baserunner from second to third he gives away an out. The numbers show you should NEVER sacrifice runners from first and second to second and third. If you don't think Vizquel can get a hit there, get someone else up to the plate. So now, the struggling pitcher has one out and he breathes a little easier. He takes the bat out of the three hole hitter's hands and gets a slow guy to ground into a double play. Maybe they score five if they don't have Vizquel make out on purpose and we aren't having this conversation. Maybe Vizquel hits into the double play. Who knows? But what we do know is that over time, you're going to score more without the bunt.


Wait a second. I thought the caveat was late innings and playing for one run. I think you do move that man to third with less than 2 outs, as you can score that one necessary run without a hit.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:29 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Wait a second. I thought the caveat was late innings and playing for one run. I think you do move that man to third with less than 2 outs, as you can score that one necessary run without a hit.


I know that's the thinking. It doesn't work very well for the Sox, does it? Also, that philosophy was born in a time when every team had guys like Dal Maxvill in the lineup. Even a weak hitting AL team like the Sox has a guys like Beckham at the bottom.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
You really have to look at how Kenny turned over his roster to get MUCH younger while staying competitive and having a small amount of money committed over the next few years:

Chris Sale (21), Gordon Beckham (23), John Danks (25), Edwin Jackson (26), Brent Lillibridge (26), Carlos Quentin (27), Gavin Floyd (27), Sergio Santos (27), Tony Pena (28), Alexei Ramirez (28), Mark Teahen (28), Alex Rios (29), Bobby Jenks (29).

He also has players in the minors ready to help the major league club in the next couple years like Dayan Viciedo (21) , Jordan Danks (23), Jared Mitchell (21), Brent Morel (23), Tyler Flowers (24) and Lucas Harrell (25).

The arrow for the White Sox is pointing up thanks to Kenny Willaims and his ability to evaluate talent.



Wait a minute....a "small amount of money committed over the next few years"????? Kenny traded a cheaper pitcher in Daniel Hudson, to get Edwin Jackson. Hudson is 4-1 with a 3.52 ERA also. Jackson (7-10 4.67 ERA) makes what....8-9 million??? He traded guys including Clayton Richard, who is 10-5 with a 3.80 ERA for Jake Peavy, (7-6 4.63 ERA) who makes about as much as 1/2 of the entire Padre's payroll. He assumed Rios contract, which was substancial (especially after this year as well. Quentin was great one season before breaking his hand and since then has been a mixed bag. Beckham has been a disappointment this season and may not be the star many predicted him to be. Jenks has been a mix of Great/Awful /Hurt and probably is gone after 2010. Teahan....are you really excited about Mark Teahan?? I think a lot of fans were hoping he could stay on the DL so as not to screw things up, upon his return. The team went on it's good run, when he went down and Viquel took over at 3rd. Viciedo looks like a hitter. I see him taking over at 1st. His production will not likely match Konerko's . At least not right away. But he should be in the team's future. Flowers, Danks and the rest of that group have not proven they are gonna be players at the major league level. Certainly they can't be counted on at this point. Of late, Kenny has just proven he has the ability to trade good young talent for older, much more highly paid talent. Not a good trend.


Here you go Rick-from last season

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:32 pm 
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You clearly aren't getting this. All you did there was mention Edwin Jackson. You didn't say it was foolish to do so. Once again, you are bumping posts that prove my point. You can't make a post like that and then say that "I said it was foolish to take on that money when the trade was made". You got caught. Just own up to it. You never said it was a foolish move. You made a few generic statements to protect yourself and now you are claiming that you called something.

I think that post proves exactly what I am saying. You make generic statements and then fill in the blanks later on. If Edwin Jackson had won a Cy Young here in Chicago, you could have fallen back to the fact that your post was factual. When Jackson ended up less than ideal you tried to convince us that you said it was foolish.

This concept is not that hard. You never said the move was foolish. You did mention a factual statement that Jackson made more money than someone else.

In the future, if you think a move is "foolish", and plan to brag later that you thought a move was "foolish" then please actually say that a move is "foolish". Therefore, if you are wrong, you have to own up to that.

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Last edited by Brick on Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Regardless of how the Sox do this year (barring a WS ring) they both need to be released at the end of the season.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:35 pm 
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Both Ozzie and Kenny should have been shitcanned at the end of LAST season, but Weird Jerry operates in strange ways.
LOYALTY trumps competence. Ineptitude matters not. If Kenny isn't fired after this season, I guess wasting Reinsdorf's money is just fine, too.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
You really have to look at how Kenny turned over his roster to get MUCH younger while staying competitive and having a small amount of money committed over the next few years:

Chris Sale (21), Gordon Beckham (23), John Danks (25), Edwin Jackson (26), Brent Lillibridge (26), Carlos Quentin (27), Gavin Floyd (27), Sergio Santos (27), Tony Pena (28), Alexei Ramirez (28), Mark Teahen (28), Alex Rios (29), Bobby Jenks (29).

He also has players in the minors ready to help the major league club in the next couple years like Dayan Viciedo (21) , Jordan Danks (23), Jared Mitchell (21), Brent Morel (23), Tyler Flowers (24) and Lucas Harrell (25).

The arrow for the White Sox is pointing up thanks to Kenny Willaims and his ability to evaluate talent.



Wait a minute....a "small amount of money committed over the next few years"????? Kenny traded a cheaper pitcher in Daniel Hudson, to get Edwin Jackson. Hudson is 4-1 with a 3.52 ERA also. Jackson (7-10 4.67 ERA) makes what....8-9 million??? He traded guys including Clayton Richard, who is 10-5 with a 3.80 ERA for Jake Peavy, (7-6 4.63 ERA) who makes about as much as 1/2 of the entire Padre's payroll. He assumed Rios contract, which was substancial (especially after this year as well. Quentin was great one season before breaking his hand and since then has been a mixed bag. Beckham has been a disappointment this season and may not be the star many predicted him to be. Jenks has been a mix of Great/Awful /Hurt and probably is gone after 2010. Teahan....are you really excited about Mark Teahan?? I think a lot of fans were hoping he could stay on the DL so as not to screw things up, upon his return. The team went on it's good run, when he went down and Viquel took over at 3rd. Viciedo looks like a hitter. I see him taking over at 1st. His production will not likely match Konerko's . At least not right away. But he should be in the team's future. Flowers, Danks and the rest of that group have not proven they are gonna be players at the major league level. Certainly they can't be counted on at this point. Of late, Kenny has just proven he has the ability to trade good young talent for older, much more highly paid talent. Not a good trend.


Here you go Rick-from last season


Read it again Rick-it's all here. The point is NOT that Jackson sucks-he doesn't. I never said he did. He's basically a .500 pitcher/slightly above. But he's paid much better than just a .500 pitcher. The guy traded for him (Hudson) has gone 18-8 (last I checked) since the trade and makes but a fraction of what Jackson makes. Thats why it was a dumb deal. To pay substancially more for a player (salary) to perform at a similar level as the guy you traded is crazy. The fact that the other guy has performed substancially better only makes it worse. Every smart GM is looking for guys that can do a good job at a lower salary, while Kenny has made far too many moves that have failed to improve the club while substancially increasing the payroll. A terrible trend.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:39 am 
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It's hard to fathom how you don't understand this. I don't think you'll ever get it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:12 am 
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I hope it continues though.

It's endlessly entertaining.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:17 am 
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Country Bumpkin wrote:
Regardless of how the Sox do this year (barring a WS ring) they both need to be released at the end of the season.

:lol:

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