Juan Pierre was the center fielder for that team. Which kind of proves my point, dope.

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Left fielders on WS teams since 2000

Johnny Damon
Pat Burrell
Manny Ramirez
So Taguchi
Scott Podsednik
Manny Ramirez
Todd Hollandsworth
Garrett Anderson
Luis Gonzales
David Justice/Rickey Ledee

Besides Podsednik, the only light-hitting left fielder was So Taguchi on a team that won 83 games. Todd Hollandsworth had a bad slugging percentage also, but he kind of sucked in general in 2003, and he was (at least in theory) supposed to provide power.

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And when your other OFs make up for that with 55+ HRs and 140+ Rbis (Rios, Quentin) you can live with it. Esepcially if the guy is going to steal 55-60 bags.

But yesterday you also said AJ was one of the worst everyday regulars in MLB and that was quickly debunked

I guess nobody has had success with a scrappy leadoff type hitter in a power position (corner OF, 1st base, 3rd base).

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I agree with you regarding Pierre. If the Sox were so in love with Kotsay, they could have made him the everyday leftfielder and brought Thome back to leadoff and they would have scored many more runs than the current team has. Frank can't get his head around the concept that a .400 OBP guy who slugs like Thome would be, if not the best, then one of the best leadoff men in baseball. In fairness to Frank, there might not be a manager who can accept that idea either.

But I will also say that you can't really compare this season's slugging percentages to those of '05. Offense is down all over and I think you'll see it continue to recede.

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I think being #220 out of #254 starters in the major leagues counts as one of the worst, especially when you've provided your team about half a win more than the average schmuck from triple-A.

The White Sox have five starters with a slugging percentage under .400. It's not being made up for. Morgan Freeman has cotton candy. Your argument is invalid.

When you search hard enough, you'll find a team that fits almost any rule. But the vast majority of teams get power production from most, usually all, of those positions. It's wiser to look at what happens most commonly, rather than taking outliers and making pronouncements. You're reaching JORR "I'm obviously wrong" territory here.

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Jermaine Dye was available again too. There were lots of options.

As for the slugging percentage, numbers are down, but .400 isn't a particularly high number. The Yankees have six above that, and two are really close. Nick Swisher is above .500, which is kind of lulzy.

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Except that I've never been "obviously wrong" about anything in this forum. If you're referring to my contention that you have no concrete method to declare one sport "more popular" than another (whatever that means) you're the one who is obviously wrong, in spite of a bunch of people who believe Bush blew up the WTC agreeing with you.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

We shouldn't really use the best team in baseball as a baseline, should we? Anyway, the problem with Pierre isn't really that he doesn't slug. It's that since he doesn't slug, he needs to post an elite OBP to have the type of offensive value you need to be getting from a corner. He hasn't.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Jermaine Dye wanted $6, 7, 8 million which is why is he still sitting at home. Thome signed for a mil 5.


Thome leading off. Now thats funny.

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What's so funny about it? It's certainly not funnier than Juan Pierre or Omar Vizquel DHing. If Thome and his .400 OBP were leading off for the Sox I'd bet a lot of money they wouldn't be chasing four games right now.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The Twins have seven of nine too, and JJ Hardy is really close.

Juan Pierre is costing the Sox three million. Thome really wasn't worth two million more than that? Jermaine Dye really wasn't worth three million more than that? Maybe if more people attended the games, I dunno...

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I've never liked the Pierre at DH, but thats only happened a handful of times.


So let me get this straight:

-Baseball is more popular than the NFL
-Jim Thome, the guy just shy of 600 career HRs, would be a good leadoff guy


lulz
Whatever you clowns are smoking, pass some this way. Its gotta be good for you two to be acting like this.

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This is a silly argument, nobody thinks Pierre is a great player or "ideal" corner outfielder. I used to have the sig ridiculing him for his lack of extra base power. He's great at one thing, making outs, and he makes more of them than damn near anyone.


He was a cheap get from the Dodgers who massively overvalued him, and were willing to eat salary to ship him out. He's not good, but he's consistently mediocre. I don't think Ozzie could take any more of the erratic/injury prone Podsednik.

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Nice edit, Orr. Don't worry, I read what you said about Jim Thome being a good option at leadoff man and caught you looking like a dumbass yet again.

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Quoted for prescience:

I obviously don't defend the Thome leading off idea, although his OBP is much, much higher than Pierre's. But Pierre DHing, ever, ever, EVER, is a much worse idea than Thome leading off. At least you get Thome more at bats that way. What in the living fuck does Juan Pierre DHing do for you?

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Wow!

PIerre at DH does not do much.


But Thome, 600 career homers, at leadoff? He is there to drive in runs, doesn't happen very often when nobody is on base. He also strikes out a ton. You want that in the leadoff slot too? Wow.

Quoted for, well whatever at this point

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pierre fangraphs value =6.8mil. they are paying him like $3.

good deal.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Are you illiterate? Did you not read the very first thing I wrote?

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They also have Jim Thome at $8.9 million.

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Fire Phil Emery

i thought this thread was about outfielders.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

It's about production, and how you need it from somewhere. People could have been shuffled around if you had an extra bat to give you an extra outfielder.

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so what you're saying is the problem isn't really LF.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

It is, but you can mitigate it. If everyone on the team was hitting spectacularly, Juan Pierre's numbers would still suck, but it wouldn't be as much of a drain. When you get nothing offensively from Omar Vizquel, Mark Kotsay as DH, and AJ Pierzynski, then having Juan Perre in left field looks way, way worse.

It's more about scarcity that anything else. Vizquel at third base is pretty dumb, but he's a utility guy and has played more than anticipated. Your catcher can't hit, but lots of catchers can't hit, and finding one that can is tough. A DH with a slugging percentage under .400 is really bad, but at least he's close. However, there are lots and lots and lots of options available for corner outfielders to provide some offensive juice, and they decided to pick Juan Pierre of the scrap heap. If you are looking for an easy fix, that's probably spot #1, along with DH.

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Name WAR Dollars
Alexei Ramirez 3.5 $14.10
Paul Konerko 3.2 $12.90
Alex Rios 2.8 $11.30
Juan Pierre 1.7 $6.80
Ramon Castro 1.1 $4.50
Andruw Jones 1 $4.10
Gordon Beckham 0.7 $3.00
A.J. Pierzynski 0.6 $2.60
Omar Vizquel 0.5 $2.10
Brent Lillibridge 0.1 $0.60
Mark Teahen -0.1 ($0.40)
Mark Kotsay -0.7 ($2.60)

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Those numbers are meaningless without context though. Omar Vizquel shouldn't be playing every day, but if he is, it definitely shouldn't be at third base. His lack of production is bringing down the WAR numbers, but I don't think the plan was for him to play as much as he has (if it was, LOL Kenny Williams). Beckham started the season much worse than what you expected but has played pretty OK since. AJ Pierzynski is bad, but catchers are hard to come by. Teahan has been injured. Kotsay really sucks, especially as a DH, no argument there...which makes it all the more important that you have a left fielder that can hit.

Fangraphs has Juan Pierre as the second worst hitting left fielder in baseball, behind only Carlos Lee. They say his main value is defensive, where he is third (FWIW, Alfonso Soriano is fourth, so I take those numbers with a grain of salt). He is the fifth least valuable hitting outfielder in the major leagues.

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Context: Injuries change things. Teahan broke his finger, so Vizquel had to become the everyday 3rd baseman. They weren't moving Beckham back there, and Vicedo isn't ready yet to be an everyday 3rd baseman.

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why are you ignoring the value of defense? a run saved is a run earned.

WAR already adjusts for positional differences. so AJ is pretty fucking horrible compared to his peers.

the fact that this steaming pile of feces is in contention is amazing.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Once again, are you illiterate? Quote:

Shortly thereafter:

Yes, I get the context, which is why I excused his low value.

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To be fair, Pierre is a good base stealer. He gets thrown out slightly more than one might prefer, but he's still a good base-stealer. Plus, he's one of the very best bunters in the game. You need to move a runner or squeeze a guy home, he's about as good as it gets. Between him and Visquel, the Sox have 2 of the best at bunting. However, thats about it. He has hit for a decent average, but with no power to speak of. He has a lousy OBP, because he rarely walks. He's got a terrible arm and lousy range for a guy with good speed. I don't like him, but unless the Sox had brought Podsednik back, they had no real legit leadoff hitter. Pierre (with all his warts) is a legit leadoff hitter.

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Go Cubs!!!!

I'm not ignoring defense. His defensive numbers are sound. I don't trust those numbers as much as I trust the offensive numbers though, just based on the Soriano anomaly. I do trust the offensive numbers.

This should be a fun question. Take salary out of the equation. Who would you rather have Frank, Juan Pierre or Alfonso Soriano? I don't want a long, hemming-and-hawing answer. Pierre or Soriano?

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