frank, your feelings get hurt very easily.

We'll always have the greek tragedy of 04 to agree on Zack.


Spinal Tap was influential...

i agree with both of these points.

I love a lot of rock bands,but it all starts with the Beatles,tour or no tour.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Be that as it may, the bolded portion of his assessment is correct in this case.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Actually I would say Mofo's assessment was pretty spot on...if you think your opinion is more "valid" "usefull" or "important" because you play an instrument than I really don't give a fuck what you think...

Edit: this goes for anything...

Double Edit: I also haven't gotten this vibe from any of the musicians on the board

the basic gist of my original comment is that whether you know a lot about the finer points of music, or know very little about it other than what sounds good to your ear, both opinions are equally valid. arguments like this are impossible to win or lose. i have this discussion with a friend of mine who is a huge music aficionado frequently, and it drives him crazy. it all boils down to one thing: do you like what you hear? A hell of a lot of people liked ABBA and Barry Manilow and Celine Dion, and as offensive as this is to "true musicians", those acts found something that people really enjoyed listening to either by luck or by design, and that is all that really matters, not how technically proficient the musicians were. the musicians i have talked music with over the years always get worked up and offended by that, and i sensed that in this thread as well.

I wouldn't call Exile "put together" at all. It's a loose record and relatively unedited when compared to Sticky Fingers or Beggar's Banquet. It seems to me the Stones are getting short shrift in this thread. They were certainly a groundbreaking band with a blues-pop fusion that probably hasn't been equaled. A lot of their stuff has held up much better than most of the Beatles catalog. Sgt. Pepper's and Magical Mystery Tour are dated as hell. They scream 1967. Sticky Fingers might have been recorded last week.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yeah, but there is something to be said for being educated on a topic. It's fine if Hot Shots Part Deux is your favorite movie but when you start arguing that it's better than Dog Day Afternoon or Citizen Kane, you've got a problem.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Unless you are not a poetry/rap fan

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Middle Aged Crazy, like Uncle Terry

Goddamnit man, your meds must have been updated; not only a cogent analogy, but a concise one as well - not to mention correct. I'm not sure my lower-GI tract can take all this excitement.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

true, good point. but if Hot Shots Part Deux was a favorite of mine, a famous movie reviewer could tell me all day how fascinating and well made Citizen Kane was and he wouldn't change my mind that i like Hot Shots better. Just because a movie expert told me a thousand ways Citizen Kane was better, it would likely be impossible to change my mind.

incidentally, i do enjoy movies a lot, i have seen Citizen Kane a couple times and it never did much for me. i like a lot of classic movies, but that just never got it done for me.

Not quite. Capitol put out a 'Best of' collection at the same time as Pet Sounds. Why would you torpedo one of your artists' albums? Don't know.

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Middle Aged Crazy, like Uncle Terry

(a) Poetry isn't music, ya goof

(b) Rap is "music" only because of the sounds they put behind it; I generally only listen for the groove and the occasional entertaining line ... take away the backing sounds and it's no longer music. Not sure how that's lost on anyone exactly.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Yeah, but that gets to the point that all opinions aren't equal. I think if you learn enough about films and filmmaking, it would be impossible for you to prefer Hot Shots to Citizen Kane. You can say that Boone's Farm is better than Brunello di Montalcino Poggio Il Castellare 2004. You may even believe it. But simply stating "that's my opinion" doesn't make you any less wrong.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

this statement is flawed. liking or not liking something will always be an opinion, there is no right or wrong. you can't be "wrong" on questions of opinion. that's my point.

My opinion is that you're wrong about that.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

NOW you are starting to get how this whole opinion thing works!

just going on the thing about "hot shots part deux" vs. "citizen kane". i would respect someone who built a case for why they thought it was better. even if i don't agree, they took the time to think it all out and worked out what they thought was better, more entertaining, etc. that i can respect.

if you just say something like "well hot shots part deux is better and that's my opinion and i'm not wrong because it's my opinion", i can't respect that, nor should anyone. it's just being lazy and irresponsible. back the opinion up, and you've got something.

how about:

"Hot Shots made me laugh out loud, we had a great time at that movie!"

"Citizen Kane was kind of boring, it didn't hold my attention. We should have gone bowling instead."

based on that, is it fair to say i thought Hot Shots was a better movie, in my opinion? what matters more regarding a movie outside of enjoying it?

What if I said that your opinion suggests you didn't understand Citizen Kane? You can like what you like but you couldn't possibly believe your opinion was the equal of someone who had a better grasp of the material, could you? It's like a guy saying the number 2 at McDonald's is better than Krug menu at Guy Savoy.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

well actually what you've both demonstrated is the beginning of an argument. that's fine.

this is what i mean...and it's littered all over the intermuhwebz..."Such-and-Such is overrated."

"Why?"

"Because it is. Other-Movie is better. End of story."

now, i'm no stranger to snobbery...but at least i try and justify my snobbery. and that's what i mean when i say that just saying "it's my opinion and i'm not wrong" is just lame. bring your thoughts, what you feel. why did you feel that way? express yourself.

To me, the fact that something is easy to enjoy suggests it's geared to the lowest common denominator. That may sound elitist, but no one is well-educated in all facets of life. Ironically- or not- this discussion includes someone called "man of few opinions". I think being a man of few opinions is a good thing. You can't possibly know everything about everything. My favorite beer is MGD. But I'm not going to tell you it's better than some microbrew you like or Newcastle Brown or whatever. My taste isn't sophisticated enough. MGD is geared to be easily accessible. It's easy to drink. It suits my purposes fine, but I'm not dumb enough to tell you it's better than Stella Artois. I just don't know enough. Stephen King is easier to read than Tolstoy. Naturally more people are going to like Pet Semetary than Anna Karenina.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

sometimes it seems like people who are "in the know" about a topic are offended that people who they don't deem equally knowledgeable are afforded an equal opinion. why would it bother anyone if i said Hot Shots was better than Citizen Kane? i guess thats what i get a kick out of. Why would it bother me one iota if i were a Beatles fan and someone said they thought Grand Funk Railroad was better? Isn't the fact that you disagree with that opinion enough, or is being "right" so important that shooting holes in another persons opinion somehow validates your own, or makes it more worthy?

BTW W_Z, i enjoy your movie reviews, so i am not trying to give you a hard time.

I often enjoy Grand Funk Railroad more than the Beatles. I could probably even make a case that "We're An American Band" is a greater single than anything the Beatles ever released and back it with a compelling argument. But the Beatles had a far larger body of work and were undeniably more influential. I suspect even the members of Grand Funk would tell you their band would not have existed had they never heard the Beatles. To say Grand Funk was better than the Beatles is a bad opinion and hard to support regardless of how much one might enjoy their music.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

i know that, and just going by what transpired between RPB and I today, i reiterate my point about arguments in general. yes, of course you get a little butthurt when you see someone dissing something you've cherished or loved for whatever personal reason you have. and they say "such and such is better" or whatever. once you get over that, bring the full thing to the table. explain yourself, instead of just copping out and saying "well it's my opinion".

personally i thought "hot shots part deux" was a hoot. i enjoyed it. i would argue it's not fair to compare to "citizen kane", if we were to have this argument. but i would still allow that your opinion is, hey i just want to have a good time at the movies. OK. if you say to me, "you obviously are looking for more"--you're right. we're in agreement about our principles without being in agreement about our personal tastes. so we can argue about what we like and don't like without trying to bring some kind of superiority to it.

however, if the argument breaks down into personal accusations and just cheap shots, then it becomes that "i win, you lose" situation...and really, nobody wins.

mofo, your original point was boneheaded because of this. I dont mean the condescening "oh, i play guitar and that song sucks." But sometimes, people that play guitar or piano or whatever know what makes a certain song. Maybe its really hard to play, or a funky tuning, or whatever. And that might make it better than something else.

Again, living up to your moniker. Keep up the good work.

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exactly what im talking about. thanks for the example frank.

Holy shit, are you simple.

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you are very complex and deep, with spot-on insight to all topics.