Yeah thats dumb

Bears would have taken Maclin

Orton has pretty much proven that the Ron Turner system was the problem. He has been a near top 10 QB since the trade was made. He has been a better QB statistically than Cutler since the trade was made. I'm a huge Cutler fan but it's hard for me to honestly say the Bears "clearly" won this trade. Knox was a huge find too. At this point I would give the Bears a slight edge and they may not have that if McDaniels was smarter than he thinks he is.

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So I should expect the Kyle Orton led Broncos to win back to back Super Bowls in the coming seasons??

No but you should probably wait at least 5 years to judge a trade. Especially one with draft picks.

I devalue first round picks made by Jerry Angelo. And Knox's stats compare quite favorably with many of the first round WR's stats from 2009.

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Well, it depends on if you allow Orton's statistics to be done on a per game basis. Cutler will pass him in many categories total because Orton was benched to give Tebow a tryout.
This isn't really true. I will do a better study later but most of his truly good games were wins or close losses.
If Orton goes to Minnesota next year I'll do whatever type of signature bet you want that the Vikings win more games than the Bears next year.
That has been my point all along but you've been too busy saying I hate Jay Cutler or love Kyle Orton.

Jay Cutler has to be indefensibly better than Orton for this trade to have been a win. That hasn't happened yet.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Not to mention that Knox wasn't even our first WR pick in that draft. He's worked out great but it's not like they needed that pick to get him. If he was really that of a must have player at draft day they would have used another pick on him.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No. This one is a winner for the Bear. They are a good team getting better while the Broncos are a bad team getting worse and it's going to take a hell of a lot more than 2 spent first rounders to turn that train wreck around.

If you consider what the Bears currently have backing up Jay Cutler, maybe...After seeing Todd Collins quarterback that one week when Cutler was out with a concussion, throwing 4 interceptions vs. the Panthers in Charlotte, plus a great deal of doubt by many regarding whether Caleb Hanie's a capable NFL quarterback to begin with, I'd welcome Kyle Orton back...but only as Cutler's backup and that's it.

Orton's done more than enough to be a starter next year. He'd be an upgrade for at lot of teams. That said, happy to have Jay

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Team Cutler.

I'm sure the Patriots and many other teams feel the same way about Brady. You draft based on your board. Even if you are high on a guy it isn't smart to select him a couple of rounds before anyone else would. How did that work out for Wolfe?

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I believe the Arizona Cardinals & San Francisco 49ers are two of the teams looking for a quarterback...

Could be. Not really paying attention to Broncos. What I would want in a quarterback is to win the close games. He and Cutler have not. That's what I'm waiting for. I don't think Orton is a leader or can ever be. I'm hoping Cutler can.

The Vikings are a more talented team than the Bears RIGHT NOW. Coaching, management and injuries have held them back. It will be easy to get that team up and running again at a division championship level, especially with the high draft picks they will get.

Give the Vikings a veteran QB, draft a DB with the #1, then get some OL and WR depth in the 2nd and 3rd and this team is ready to go.

Peterson, Rice, migrane, Crankoe, Camarillo and Gebhart are some top skill position players.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

So you are saying Lovie has a knack for doing more with less? I think he does. Angelo's drafting sucks,but the Bears are no worse then average every year since Smith's second season. I'm sick of the Bears getting dissed. Last year they lost 9 games & they sucked. Nobody gave them any respect despite losing Urlacher & actually all 3 starting LB's at one point in the season. Now they are lucky. A lot of variables go into a winning year. Luck is one of them,so is being injury free but talent is the biggest factor.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

No.

Too early.

If the Bears dont sign Peppers they could be 4-11. Then the trade would suck right?

No.

5 years...earliest.



Why is it sooooo hard for some people to understand that Draft picks have a certain value.

That value is not changed by what GM or what team makes the pick.

The pick is the thing. Not the player taken. Its like buying a future.


This guy who is apparently worth 2 first rd picks, and its a STEAL, threw 27 interceptions last year.


27

He's having a good year, the trade might work out.

Yes.

If your aunt had a set of balls she'd be your uncle.

It seems you and others are overvaluing the draft picks. The Bears will have a first round pick next year and the year after that and the year after that.....

The Broncos recieved 2 first round picks and they still fucking suck.

The Broncos have traded for 2 QB's and drafted another in the first round and still haven't replaced Cutler.

Bears win.

Broncos lose.

Division champs.

YES!

You dont, errr, youre not capable of understanding.

I forgot youre a blind homer.



Didnt you drunkenly declare this trade a victory last year and then take it back the next day?


Anyways, youre wrong as usual.

Have you read his baseball thoughts?

He's like a 10 year old.

Every team he likes is the BEST!!!!

You're saying the Broncos threw good money after bad trying to replace a franchise quarterback?? Sounds like they would have been better off keeping Cutler rather than wasting all that money trying to replace him.

Bears win again!

YES!

It's very difficult to acquire a franchise quarterback and the Broncos gave one to the Bears for virtually nothing. If the Bears didn't make that trade it could be them chasing their tails trying to acquire a franchise QB. But they did make the trade and are now a better team for doing so.

Bears win!

YES!

Upon further review, here is how I would calculate him playing in "garbage" games.
In wins: 8 touchdowns, 1 interception
In losses by less than 10 points: 6 tds ,2 ints
In losses by more than 10 points: 7 tds, 7 ints

I did the above quickly so it may be slightly off but it shows the general trend. He did much better in wins and close losses as you would expect.

So he really didn't use garbage time to pad his touchdown and interception statistics. There really seems to be no useful information in regards to yardage. In the three wins he went over 300 twice and was four yards away in the other one. He went for under 200 yards in two blowouts and a low scoring game. He did go for nearly 500 yards against Indianapolis in a 14 point loss.

The real reason why he threw so much was that the Broncos had no running game to speak of for most of the season.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Let's keep it simple:




What counts more.... stats or wins?



Note, any answers to this question will be compared against statements made at the time of the trade and up to the Bronco's 6-0 start.

Stats matter more because a QB controls that specifically the negative statistics such as interceptions which only hurt the team. Wins matter too but it's a more imperfect statistic as can be seen by Orton who is performing better in Denver than Chicago but is not winning as many games.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Since the Bears bye week, that is absolutely not the case.


And as a fan, I would much rather a winning team than a QB who is doing better on the stat sheet.

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Okay but of course you do recall how the entire Orton/Cutler debate was framed when the trade happened, and when Orton was 6-0, I am sure. It was stats (Cutler) vs. wins (Orton), and the Orton crowd yelled from the rooftops that the QB with wins is always far more valuable than the QB with the stats.

But if we're going to look at stats, here are a few stats that might be more directly related to wins. QB rating in the 4th qtr of a game within 7 points, and in the last 2 minutes of a half. These are for 2010, taken from ESPN's site:


Cutler:

CLOSE CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
4th Q: +/- 7 pts. 35 56 423 62.5 7.55 38 5 2 3.0 100.5
Last 2 min. of half 28 44 414 63.6 9.41 89 6 2 1.0 115.0


Orton:

CLOSE CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
4th Q: +/- 7 pts. 33 67 366 49.3 5.46 31 1 2 5.0 58.4
Last 2 min. of half 46 83 540 55.4 6.51 44 5 2 4.0 85.4




We also have to take into consideration, when looking at the total yards stat where Orton is leading 3650 to 3100, that Orton has a full 100 more pass attempts than Cutler. To make a more fair comparison then, we can look at yards-per-attempt. Orton is at 7.3, Cutler is at 7.9. Orton has used 100 attempts to get just 500 yards ahead of Cutler. So one could actually argue Cutler is winning this category too.

Orton has played better in Denver statistically than he did in Chicago but has not won as many games.
Me too but that isn't what we are talking about.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Ah I read that wrong. I thought you meant Orton is performing better than Cutler, which is dicey to say at best.

Orton as a Bronco > Orton as a Bear
The problem there was Ron Turner I think.

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No, they didn't but if you want to think that go ahead. Only an idiot would say that only wins matter in regards to a QB and I'm not going to argue the case put forth by people like that. It matters how the team does but it's not the most important thing. I'd take Philip Rivers over Cutler right now but the Bears are a better team.
In general though it hurts your yards per attempt when the other team knows that you are passing it all the time. That's why having a balanced team helps a QB. Drew Brees had one of the greatest passing seasons in NFL history when he threw for over 5,000 yards. However, he was only third in yards per attempt and Jake Delhomme was very close to him. I don't think Delhomme would have been able to throw for 5,000 yards if he had been given those extra throws.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!