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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:23 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
These thoughts on Scottie as a player are ridiculous. You can love Jordan and Scottie. No one says that you have to choose. LeBron isn't a threat to Jordan so there is no need to rewrite history.



You're the one comparing Pippen and Jordan. You introduced that portion of it into the discussion.


I didn't compare Scottie to Jordan unless we are now calling LeBron Jordan.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:25 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
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McKey was not close to Pippen defensively.


Pippen was a real top defender, but so was McKey. And he was a bigger guy. McKey really could guard a center, at least for a stretch to give the real big guy a blow.

I'll just say this. If Pippen wasn't on all those championship teams with Jordan, I don't think anyone would think of him any differently than they do Sidney Moncrief.


Funny I was talking to your partner and the best comparison I had for Scottie was him. Obviously the success Scottie had and his will to win elevates him far above Sidney Moncrief. Reggie Miller is Dale Ellis without his success.

Edit: Pippen is an all time great defender. McKey was a really good defender that lacked the "it".



I think the disconnect between your view and the view that LTG and I have is that what you call Pippen's "will to win", we call Michael Jordan.


Discrediting Scottie is definitely the issue. Jordan wasn't winning those titles alone. If Jordan's importance was a 10 then Scottie's was a 7.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:28 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Discrediting Scottie is definitely the issue. Jordan wasn't winning those titles alone. If Jordan's importance was a 10 then Scottie's was a 7.



I don't see it as discrediting Scottie. He was a great player. But you're coming really close to equating his importance with that of Jordan. You could plug Moncrief (among other guys) into Scottie's spot and the Bulls win those championships without missing a beat. There's no one you could plug into Jordan's spot.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:29 pm 
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Nas wrote:
These thoughts on Scottie as a player are ridiculous. You can love Jordan and Scottie. No one says that you have to choose. LeBron isn't a threat to Jordan so there is no need to rewrite history.


I'm not a Pippen hater. I appreciate his contributions to the acquisition of 6 rings. I don't over value him either. Jordan is the guy that made it go. Pippen was a nice sidekick and his game complimented Jordan's. That top 50 list was made almost 20 yes ago and if done today it's debatable as to whether Pippen would be on it. I'm a Pippen fan and I could easily create a list that doesn't place him on the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:29 pm 
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Do the Bulls win 6 titles if they have mckey instead of pip?

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:33 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Discrediting Scottie is definitely the issue. Jordan wasn't winning those titles alone. If Jordan's importance was a 10 then Scottie's was a 7.



I don't see it as discrediting Scottie. He was a great player. But you're coming really close to equating his importance with that of Jordan. You could plug Moncrief (among other guys) into Scottie's spot and the Bulls win those championships without missing a beat. There's no one you could plug into Jordan's spot.


I don't think you could plug anyone else in. I've never said Scottie was as equally important to the Bulls success as Jordan. Scottie wouldn't even say that. Fact is he was very important to their success and fans of Jordan like to play down his importance. There aren't many unselfish superstars.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:33 pm 
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Nas wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Nas wrote:
I think Jordan needed Scottie too. Scottie was the guy everyone liked and he was very unselfish. He made the job MJ had to do easier.


Who liked Scottie?

He was a petulant, unsophisticated turd.

People liked Jordan. You might respond that they only liked him because he was BMOC but a lot of those guys are still his friends.


His teammates and players around the league. The star players used to tell Jordan that if he gave them Scottie they would win too. Tex Winters said the only time his offense was run the right way was with Scottie. Every Bulls player that was asked preferred Scottie over Jordan because he was a better teammate and an unselfish player. Let's not rewrite history.



I think you are def. Equating his value with that of Jordan.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:35 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
He is a far superior defender than DJ because of his versatility.



I don't think anyone outside of Chicago believes that.

Pippen belongs in conversations with DJ, Michael Cooper, Byron Scott, Gary Payton, and Sidney Moncrief.

It's just absurd to say he was a better player than James Worthy.


Scottie could score 20 points but have a far greater impact on the game than Jordan. They don't get past Indiana in 1998 without him. He willed them to victory.


I think you are def. equating his value with that of Jordan.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:38 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Nas wrote:
I think Jordan needed Scottie too. Scottie was the guy everyone liked and he was very unselfish. He made the job MJ had to do easier.


Who liked Scottie?

He was a petulant, unsophisticated turd.

People liked Jordan. You might respond that they only liked him because he was BMOC but a lot of those guys are still his friends.


His teammates and players around the league. The star players used to tell Jordan that if he gave them Scottie they would win too. Tex Winters said the only time his offense was run the right way was with Scottie. Every Bulls player that was asked preferred Scottie over Jordan because he was a better teammate and an unselfish player. Let's not rewrite history.



I think you are def. Equating his value with that of Jordan.


No that isn't. It's illustrating his importance and how they complimented each other. It was also pointing out how good his peers thought he was. Very few guys enjoy playing with the Jordan's and Kobe's of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:38 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
Do the Bulls win 6 titles if they have mckey instead of pip?


No.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:39 pm 
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pip is underrated today. dude was awesome. better than worthy.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:40 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Fact is he was very important to their success and fans of Jordan like to play down his importance. There aren't many unselfish superstars.



Well, I'm not a fan of Jordan. I do recognize his greatness but I don't think he's the indisputable "greatest of all-time". You're right about Scottie's unselfishness- at least where Jordan was concerned. (He wasn't so unselfish when it came to running a play for Kukoc.) Most guys as good as Pippen wouldn't have played second fiddle so willingly.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:41 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
Do the Bulls win 6 titles if they have mckey instead of pip?



I think so.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:50 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Jordan won his first playoff series when Scottie arrived. Bulls clinched when Scottie was inserted in the starting lineup. If Jordan is a 10 I don't think Scottie is worse than a 7.


Nas you are a sly guy. This is def. A rhetorical sleight of hand. That first yr. He avg. 20 min. A game. Didn't start any games. Brad Sellers was the starting SF. The Brad Sellers. This on a team that won 50 games but Jordan didn't win any series until Pippen arrived. Pippen was really a factor that first yr. Wasn't he?

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:55 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Jordan won his first playoff series when Scottie arrived. Bulls clinched when Scottie was inserted in the starting lineup. If Jordan is a 10 I don't think Scottie is worse than a 7.


Nas you are a sly guy. This is def. A rhetorical sleight of hand. That first yr. He avg. 20 min. A game. Didn't start any games. Brad Sellers was the starting SF. The Brad Sellers. This on a team that won 50 games but Jordan didn't win any series until Pippen arrived. Pippen was really a factor that first yr. Wasn't he?


Scottie wasn't ready yet but when he was inserted into the starting lineup (in the playoff clincher) he played great. It was clear at that point that even though he needed more seasoning he could be the guy that could help Jordan win.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:55 pm 
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Nas wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Do the Bulls win 6 titles if they have mckey instead of pip?


No.


I agree on that one but I bring up Mckey because Pippen is a lot closer to Mckey ability wise. Mckey was not an all time great no where near. Winning and playing with Jordan benefitted Pippin a lot more than vice versa.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:58 pm 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Jordan won his first playoff series when Scottie arrived. Bulls clinched when Scottie was inserted in the starting lineup. If Jordan is a 10 I don't think Scottie is worse than a 7.


Nas you are a sly guy. This is def. A rhetorical sleight of hand. That first yr. He avg. 20 min. A game. Didn't start any games. Brad Sellers was the starting SF. The Brad Sellers. This on a team that won 50 games but Jordan didn't win any series until Pippen arrived. Pippen was really a factor that first yr. Wasn't he?


Scottie wasn't ready yet but when he was inserted into the starting lineup (in the playoff clincher) he played great. It was clear at that point that even though he needed more seasoning he could be the guy that could help Jordan win.
If
this is the case then what did the migraine headache game of Two yrs later demonstrate?

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Last edited by long time guy on Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:00 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Do the Bulls win 6 titles if they have mckey instead of pip?


No.


I agree on that one but I bring up Mckey because Pippen is a lot closer to Mckey ability wise. Mckey was not an all time great no where near. Winning and playing with Jordan benefitted Pippin a lot more than vice versa.


I can't argue with that. Jordan helped Scottie mentally get to another level. I think they both got better by competing against each other in practice. They both needed each other but Jordan would have been an all time great without Scottie. He probably wouldn't be considered the greatest though. Winning changes a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:03 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Jordan won his first playoff series when Scottie arrived. Bulls clinched when Scottie was inserted in the starting lineup. If Jordan is a 10 I don't think Scottie is worse than a 7.


Nas you are a sly guy. This is def. A rhetorical sleight of hand. That first yr. He avg. 20 min. A game. Didn't start any games. Brad Sellers was the starting SF. The Brad Sellers. This on a team that won 50 games but Jordan didn't win any series until Pippen arrived. Pippen was really a factor that first yr. Wasn't he?


Scottie wasn't ready yet but when he was inserted into the starting lineup (in the playoff clincher) he played great. It was clear at that point that even though he needed more seasoning he could be the guy that could help Jordan win.
If y
this is the case then what did the migraine headache game of Teo yrs later demonstrate?


He had a mental hurdle to get over. Let's not act like Jordan didn't either. He struggled with the Piston's physical style of play. Then he spent the summer in the weight room and developing his game more. That's when took off. Scottie arrived the year before they won it all.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:29 pm 
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Jordan's mental or physical toughness was never questioned. Pippen's was. I'm a Pippen fan. I appreciated his game. I think that in terms of revisionism he has benefitted from it more as time has passed. There are some who place him as Jordans equal in level of importance. If not this then it's Jordan 1 and Pippen 1A. Both are false. He was a decided No. 2 on the pecking order. It doesn't say this as a detriment to him as a player but it's necessary as a means of providing clarity.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:34 am 
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look at that 30 for 30 about the Pistons: Michael rededicated himself physically to beating them. I think all the Bulls did. Horace and Scottie transformed their bodies from year 1 (and maybe 2). I remember seeing a picture of them standing with the strength coach before the season and the difference was obvious

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:38 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
look at that 30 for 30 about the Pistons: Michael rededicated himself physically to beating them. I think all the Bulls did. Horace and Scottie transformed their bodies from year 1 (and maybe 2). I remember seeing a picture of them standing with the strength coach before the season and the difference was obvious


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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:19 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
look at that 30 for 30 about the Pistons: Michael rededicated himself physically to beating them. I think all the Bulls did. Horace and Scottie transformed their bodies from year 1 (and maybe 2). I remember seeing a picture of them standing with the strength coach before the season and the difference was obvious



I watched the series and I remember it vividly. Jordan didn't shy away from the contact. He continued to attack the defense. He beefed up so that he would be able to better take the contact. Pippen shied away from the contact. You didn't leave that series thinking that Jordan was physically or mentally soft. He got hammered but continued to attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:42 am 
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The rules and game was much different then. A defender could use both hands to "check" his opponent. There was a lot more "chippiness" then with the refs arbitrating the foul calls. There were no "Flagrant Foul" rules. From the Celtics to the Pistons, and by the time Pat Riley's Knicks emerged they fouled everyone on every posession challenging the refs to call every infraction.

Maybe the thought then was that Pippen was the weak link to be attacked. The Pippen-Xavier McDaniels-Jordan tussle in 1992 showed how things went.

http://youtu.be/DE4pu5bwdbU

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:49 am 
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No Clever Moniker wrote:
The rules and game was much different then. A defender could use both hands to "check" his opponent. There was a lot more "chippiness" then with the refs arbitrating the foul calls. There were no "Flagrant Foul" rules. From the Celtics to the Pistons, and by the time Pat Riley's Knicks emerged they fouled everyone on every posession challenging the refs to call every infraction.

Maybe the thought then was that Pippen was the weak link to be attacked. The Pippen-Xavier McDaniels-Jordan tussle in 1992 showed how things went.

http://youtu.be/DE4pu5bwdbU


it was obvious they believed they could get in Pippen's head. Rodman in particular and somewhat Laimbeer tested him constantly throughout the series. It culminated in game seven of the series.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:01 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
look at that 30 for 30 about the Pistons: Michael rededicated himself physically to beating them. I think all the Bulls did. Horace and Scottie transformed their bodies from year 1 (and maybe 2). I remember seeing a picture of them standing with the strength coach before the season and the difference was obvious



I watched the series and I remember it vividly. Jordan didn't shy away from the contact. He continued to attack the defense. He beefed up so that he would be able to better take the contact. Pippen shied away from the contact. You didn't leave that series thinking that Jordan was physically or mentally soft. He got hammered but continued to attack.


I'd never call Jordan soft

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 Post subject: Re: Scottie is right
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:24 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
long time guy wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
look at that 30 for 30 about the Pistons: Michael rededicated himself physically to beating them. I think all the Bulls did. Horace and Scottie transformed their bodies from year 1 (and maybe 2). I remember seeing a picture of them standing with the strength coach before the season and the difference was obvious



I watched the series and I remember it vividly. Jordan didn't shy away from the contact. He continued to attack the defense. He beefed up so that he would be able to better take the contact. Pippen shied away from the contact. You didn't leave that series thinking that Jordan was physically or mentally soft. He got hammered but continued to attack.


I'd never call Jordan soft


Me either. Pippen's mental and physical toughness was still questionable at that point. The next yr. he took the necessary step and the Bulls took off. In '90 his toughness was questionable and rightfully so.

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