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 Post subject: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:09 am 
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Might as well get the talk and analysis going.

Here's what the Churchill Downs odds maker, Battaglia, thinks. From the Courier Journal:


After the Triple Crown prep season closed with Saturday's Arkansas Derby, Mike Battaglia labeled Nyquist "probably the least-respected undefeated horse coming into the Derby we've ever had."

But, the longtime Churchill Downs odds maker added, "All he just keeps doing is winning," and that's why Battaglia plans to install the undefeated 2-year-old champion as the Kentucky Derby's morning line favorite.

Battaglia said he sees Nyquist as a 3-1 or so top choice coming out of his Florida Derby victory on May 2. The Uncle Mo colt has since then shipped to Keeneland and put in a workout there last Friday.

"I think he's a legitimate favorite," Battaglia said. "He's a really good horse. He's got to make another step forward, that's all. We'll see how he trains. It's a lot about who trains well over the Churchill Downs surface."

Battaglia last year decided upon American Pharoah as a 5-2 morning-line favorite over Bob Baffert stablemate Dortmund based upon the eventual Triple Crown winner's work at Churchill leading into the first Saturday in May.

Tasked since 1975 with setting the Derby's morning line -- a measurement of how he thinks the wagering public will bet the field -- Battaglia at this point sees Santa Anita Derby winner Exaggerator as the second choice.

He's unsure of the rest. But Battaglia was a fan of Creator's last-to-first win in Saturday's Arkansas Derby and said Mohaymen could receive consideration should he return well to working off his only defeat, a fourth-place effort in the Florida Derby.

"It's always tough," Battaglia said. "I don't think this is much different than any other year...I think whatever horse gets all the buzz Derby week and is training well, I'll make them my third choice."

As for a longshot, Battaglia pointed to My Man Sam, second in the Blue Grass Stakes with another rallying effort.

"When he was dead last, I didn't think he had a shot," Battaglia said. "He came up there and ran a pretty doggone good race and I thought, 'That was kind of impressive.' I'm keeping him on my radar, at least."

Battaglia reads off his morning line after entries are taken and post positions drawn the Wednesday before the race.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sp ... /83147522/


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:00 am 
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Rube, you have the fever.

I think Nyquist will win. I was on Exaggerator but this guy posted a video of the difference in their speeds in the last 1/8.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2PQhXDBfTA

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:53 pm 
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spmack wrote:
Rube, you have the fever.

I think Nyquist will win. I was on Exaggerator but this guy posted a video of the difference in their speeds in the last 1/8.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2PQhXDBfTA


Yes. This is shaping up to be the most interesting Derby for some time. It's completely open as far as I'm concerned with no clear favorite.

I'll check out the video when I get home today. But I'm on Exaggerator. Only four tenths slower than Nyquist in 1 1/8 mi distance, and he did it in the slop.


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:13 pm 
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From the NYT two days ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/18/sport ... .html?_r=0


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:56 am 
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Was reading an article yesterday on which running style wins the Derby.

This is how the article categorized the contender horses:

Front-Runners
Danzing Candy
Outwork

Stalkers
Mor Spirit (Grinder)
Destin
Majesto (Grinder)
Shagaf
Gun Runner
My Man Sam
Lani
Tom’s Ready
Oscar Nominated

Closers
Suddenbreakingnews
Brody’s Cause
Mo Tom
Trojan Nation
Exaggerator
Creator
Whitmore

Tactical Speed

Nyquist
Mohaymen

The article concludes that stalkers are grinders are best suited for this race, along with horses with tactical speed. That means that Mohaymen should warrant consideration, even after the bad trip at the G1 Florida Derby. Interestingly, the trainer said that the track was wet even though it was listed as "good," and the horse had never run on a wet track before. Also, it was 89 degrees that day, which the horse may not have liked either. If the horse draws a good post position and works out well leading up to May 7, he could have a decent shot at winning. He was neck-for-neck with Nyquist all the way until the final turn in Florida.


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:38 am 
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JORR, what's your take on Brody's Cause?

Ran a strong race last time at the Blue Grass Stakes. I like the horse as well as "My Man Sam" from the same race. He could be the big upset pick.

There's a bunch of chatter around "Fellowship". I looked at his races yesterday. Has excellent late kick, but not a lot of speed. There's a number of horses in that closer category that are better, it seems to me.


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:37 pm 
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Dignified Rube wrote:
JORR, what's your take on Brody's Cause?

Ran a strong race last time at the Blue Grass Stakes. I like the horse as well as "My Man Sam" from the same race. He could be the big upset pick.

There's a bunch of chatter around "Fellowship". I looked at his races yesterday. Has excellent late kick, but not a lot of speed. There's a number of horses in that closer category that are better, it seems to me.


Brody's Cause is a serious horse. I think he has a good chance in the Derby.

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:15 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Dignified Rube wrote:
JORR, what's your take on Brody's Cause?

Ran a strong race last time at the Blue Grass Stakes. I like the horse as well as "My Man Sam" from the same race. He could be the big upset pick.

There's a bunch of chatter around "Fellowship". I looked at his races yesterday. Has excellent late kick, but not a lot of speed. There's a number of horses in that closer category that are better, it seems to me.


Brody's Cause is a serious horse. I think he has a good chance in the Derby.


I have him as my twin spires futures selection.

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:25 am 
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Handicapping this race is going to be tough.

I am high on Moyhamen, because he is said to have worked out well so far at Churchill Downs. I haven't see any horses with better times than his over six furlongs. On Bovada, he is 8-1 , a good price for a legit contender.

Another horse that didn't perform well his last time but should be given another look is Danzig Candy.

I'll probably have Nyquist, Moyhamen and Exaggerator as my main three. The other horses I'm considering are Danzig Candy, Brody's Cause, Creator, Suddenbreakingnews and My Man Sam.

How are you supposed to bet this thing when there are so many good horses to choose from? I guess it comes down to post position draws.

SPMACK, you still on Exaggerator? What are you thinking these days?


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:11 pm 
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How to Bet the 2016 Kentucky Derby

From Forbes Magazine

http://www.forbes.com/sites/guymartin/2 ... 2b5faf1267

Guy Martin
CONTRIBUTOR

The field for this year’s Kentucky Derby will be big and darn rowdy—in this sense, April is the cruellest month, at least for trainers and owners vying for the first leg of the Triple Crown. The unusually exciting thing about the 142nd Run for the Roses is that so many horses have come out of so many different directions to the race.

With Louisiana Derby winner Gun Runner, trained by Steve Asmussen, a kind of all-odds points favorite—meaning, having assembled enough wins to establish a ‘point’ lead over the field—Nyquist, with a stunning win in the Florida Derby, heaved into view as a favorite over a much-touted Mohaymen. A scant week later, within in a few hours on Saturday, April 9, three other major contenders showed their stuff at tracks across the country.

At Aqueduct’s Wood Memorial, the Todd Pletcher-trained Outwork literally nosed out the 81-1 come-from-behind Trojan Nation to take New York’s classic Derby prep. Down on home turf in Lexington, Kentucky, Brody’s Cause edged out the field in the Blue Grass Stakes. And way out there in California, in the very wet Santa Anita Derby, the gritty, impressive Exaggerator, trained by Keith Desormeaux, who has his Hall-of-Fame brother Kent in the irons, needed zero help powering through the mud to take the prize money by six-and-a-half lengths. Never underestimate the Desormeaux brothers, in other words. It helps that jockey Kent has four Kentucky Derby wins under his belt.

To help handicap this maze of really delightful bets, I have once again been locked in deep consultation with the Bluegrass Wise Man ™, whose rapier wit, horse sense and deep handicapping wisdom proved so popular in the runup to last year’s Triple Crown. The Wise Man is a lifelong Kentucky horseman, stable-owner, and Lexington insider. All Kentuckians have embedded in their DNA the deep, ruminative Zen art of knowing equine talent. Basically, Kentucky horsemen – as opposed to all other horsemen – are drinking the same famous limestone-inflected water that builds such fine bones in the thoroughbreds, and when you improve the taste of that mineral water with few jiggers of the local craftsmanly distillates as Kentucky horsemen are wont to do, then that only helps them adjudicate the horse flesh. The Wise Man is no exception. His bred-in-the-bone Kentucky-ness gives a special barrel-aged depth to his pre-race analysis. Full disclosure: he and his syndicate have no horses in this year’s race.

Forbes: So, Nyquist. Superb in the Florida Derby, really put Mohaymen away. Most everybody was touting Mohaymen, citing his experience, whatever that means in a three-year-old. Where does Nyquist get his extra gear?

Bluegrass Wise Man: Nyquist gets his extra gear from his sire, Uncle Mo. Uncle Mo is the leading second crop sire at the moment, and his oldest horses are three-year-olds. Uncle Mo had the winner of New York’s Wood Memorial, of course, in Outwork. The Uncle Moes can run. What I’m saying is that there will be at least two Uncle Moes this year at Churchill Downs CHDN +%.

What the hell was everybody touting Mohaymen so hard for then? The dude completely collapsed in the last two furlongs.

The thinking on Mohaymen was that he ran a subpar race, but is capable of more. He did race wide nearly all the way and he was trying to beat a track bias that was playing to horses that were able to get the early lead. That is a jockey problem, not necessarily a horse problem. Not many horses were closing on the damp Gulfstream surface that day. Mohaymen still needs to be considered.

Does Nyquist have any weaknesses?

The question is going to be whether or not he can get to the end of the one-and-a-quarter. Uncle Mo could not, nor could his sire Indian Charlie, or said another way, neither could Nyquist’s grandfather really eat the track at that length. The Derby’s a long race, is what I’m telling you, which means there are going to be plenty of threats to Nyquist.

Exaggerator murdered everybody within sight in the Santa Anita Derby. Help us put this horse in perspective.

Exaggerator is an interesting horse. Let’s remember that, despite the great win at Santa Anita, he has been beaten twice by Nyquist. He is a son of Curlin, an amazing sire who suggests the Derby distance will not be an issue. Exaggerator does have the win over a sloppy track which could occur on Derby Day, as we know. He always seems to be in the mix down the stretch and making his run. The Desormeaux Brothers are horsemen. Keith Desormeaux has not had many Derby starters, but he certainly knows how to have his horses fit on the appropriate day. His biggest fear may be that Kent rides a bad race and invokes others to call him by his nickname of “Sleepy” after the Derby.

“Sleepy” Desormeaux? Really? Okay, I don’t think we wanna know.

That’s his nickname.

Can we be right in sensing that Outwork – despite the fact that he’s trained by Todd Pletcher – seems like he may be having to work harder than Exaggerator just to be in the field?

Outwork is an emerging horse for Pletcher. He is another son of Uncle Mo and is owned by Mike Repole, who, actually, raced Uncle Mo. Outwork’s win in the Wood Memorial was solid but did come over a muddy sealed race track that seemed to favor speed. I am not revved up on him just yet. He ran a good 2nd in the Tampa Bay Derby to another horse trained by Pletcher, Destin. But. He has not run back since that race but did turn in a good workout recently.

Is winning the Derby always and forever about ‘running back?’

Just remember when you are laying down the big bets: Whether it’s about the horse, the pedigree, the trainer, the jockey, the length of the race, the condition of the track, or a combination of all six, the clock and the camera never lie.


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 12:14 pm 
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I need some solid tips...we're heading down on Thursday for the Oaks and Derby.

Light em up!

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 12:27 pm 
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I've been waiting, too. SPMACK keeping his picks close to the vest 8)

I'm kind of feeling Mor Spirit with Gary Stevens. Stevens says the horse reminds him of Belmont winner, AP Indy.

Not much to complain about him. Has finished 1st or 2nd in his last four races.

Baffert is confident in him after his last workout at Churchill.

http://www.kentucky.com/sports/horses/a ... 24747.html

Haven't you liked Mor Spirit all along, JORR?


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 12:56 pm 
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Dignified Rube wrote:
I've been waiting, too. SPMACK keeping his picks close to the vest 8)

I'm kind of feeling Mor Spirit with Gary Stevens. Stevens says the horse reminds him of Belmont winner, AP Indy.

Not much to complain about him. Has finished 1st or 2nd in his last four races.

Baffert is confident in him after his last workout at Churchill.

http://www.kentucky.com/sports/horses/a ... 24747.html

Haven't you liked Mor Spirit all along, JORR?

JORR been all Brody's Cause

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 12:57 pm 
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GoldenJet wrote:
I need some solid tips...we're heading down on Thursday for the Oaks and Derby.

Light em up!

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 4:13 pm 
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If Danzig Candy gets a clean trip, I think he might take it.

He turned up a lemon in the San Anita Derby. But why? Track conditions? Probably, because it was in the slop. What about the trainer deciding to use blinkers on him? That seems very odd to do that to a horse in an off-track. The poor animal has to tread through mud he's not used to; and then on top of that, you put something on his face so that he can't see anything other than straight. Maybe the experts here know whether it is smart or not to put blinkers on a horse in muddy conditions. I can't see it being a good thing.

It's usually a speed horse that can last that wins the Kentucky Derby. Danzig Candy fits that profile. I like what I see in Mor Spirit, but the better horse is the one that beat him in Danzig Candy. He's one of the few horses that can be on or slightly off the pace and go wire to wire for the win. The one question mark is whether he has enough to go the extra 1/8 mi. I think he does.

So many factors to consider in this race makes it a handicappers dream (or nightmare).


Last edited by Dignified Rube on Tue May 03, 2016 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 4:50 pm 
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There's no way in the world I think Danzing Candy is a better horse going a buck and a quarter than Mor Spirit. He is going to have the lead though and there isn't much other real speed in there. Still, I can't see them just letting him walk around the track. And you saw what happened when he got a little pressure from Uncle Lino in the SA Derby. He was a stone cold run-off. I expect the blinkers will be off on Saturday. That may help him relax a little more. But he can only do it one way.

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:39 pm 
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So CSFMB experts. For a "I only bet the Derby" kind of guy, could you be so kind as to give me one of your favorites and a longshot that might have a chance?

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:45 pm 
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Weather forecast is calling for partly Cloudy and 85 degrees in Louisville for Saturday.


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:14 pm 
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I'm all about Nyquist. Sorry everyone. I know that isn't a lot of analysis, but who's going to go with him?

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 6:21 am 
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spmack wrote:
I'm all about Nyquist. Sorry everyone. I know that isn't a lot of analysis, but who's going to go with him?


Yes, but what if he doesn't get a favorable post?

To answer your question, Danzig Candy, Moyhamen and Mor Spirit have the speed to go with him. According to the article I posted, Mor Spirit has gotten better and is being ridden by Gary Stephens. If Nyquist draws the outside post and Mor Spirit gets lucky drawing a five post, I would load up on Mor Spirit.

The closers are said to be disadvantaged in this race, but you still have to keep your eye on the likes of Exaggerator, Creator, Suddenbreakingnews and as a long shot, My Man Sam.

Destin is supposed to be a fast horse, but has had the longest lay-off since his last race. Some consider that a negative.

I'm still making up my mind on Brody's Cause and Gun Runner. I want to see post positions and the program first.


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 6:34 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
There's no way in the world I think Danzing Candy is a better horse going a buck and a quarter than Mor Spirit. He is going to have the lead though and there isn't much other real speed in there. Still, I can't see them just letting him walk around the track. And you saw what happened when he got a little pressure from Uncle Lino in the SA Derby. He was a stone cold run-off. I expect the blinkers will be off on Saturday. That may help him relax a little more. But he can only do it one way.


It comes down to price, JORR, and luck. If you give me 10-1 or better on Danzig Candy, I'm on him.

Still kicking myself for letting Creator go at the price he got.


Last edited by Dignified Rube on Wed May 04, 2016 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 6:35 am 
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Dignified Rube wrote:
Destin is supposed to be a fast horse, but has had the longest lay-off since his last race. Some consider that a negative.


Pletcher just kills it with horses off 60 days though. His Derby record hasn't been good doing things a more traditional way. Maybe this will work for him. I don't know if the horse is good enough, if he'll get a good enough trip, etc., but one thing I'm sure about, he won't be short.

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 6:36 am 
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Dignified Rube wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
There's no way in the world I think Danzing Candy is a better horse going a buck and a quarter than Mor Spirit. He is going to have the lead though and there isn't much other real speed in there. Still, I can't see them just letting him walk around the track. And you saw what happened when he got a little pressure from Uncle Lino in the SA Derby. He was a stone cold run-off. I expect the blinkers will be off on Saturday. That may help him relax a little more. But he can only do it one way.


It comes down to price, JORR. If you give me 10-1 or better on Danzig Candy, I'm on him.

Still kicking myself for letting Creator go at the price he got.


Well, you're gonna get that. I think he'll be over 20-1. But I'm still not convinced that's a good price. It might be though. There's a lot to be said for lone speed.

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:26 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Dignified Rube wrote:
Destin is supposed to be a fast horse, but has had the longest lay-off since his last race. Some consider that a negative.


Pletcher just kills it with horses off 60 days though. His Derby record hasn't been good doing things a more traditional way. Maybe this will work for him. I don't know if the horse is good enough, if he'll get a good enough trip, etc., but one thing I'm sure about, he won't be short.


After watching the Tampa Bay Derby this morning, I would put Destin in the group of horses that have the speed to hang with Nyquist. Destin's time at Tampa was impressive 1:42:82, and it looked like he had still a higher gear in the end. Would be a better pick than Danzig Candy and Mohaymen in your exotics.

I think I have to scratch Brody's Cause off my list for what he did at Tampa. The horse does not have the speed to keep up with the leaders at one mile. I don't think his closing speed is enough in this race. I like Dale Romans, and he says this horse is the best chance he's ever had going into the Derby, but the lagging performance in the Tampa Derby puts me off this one.


Last edited by Dignified Rube on Wed May 04, 2016 7:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:27 am 
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33 to 1 for Danzig Candy on Bovada


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:36 am 
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Dignified Rube wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
There's no way in the world I think Danzing Candy is a better horse going a buck and a quarter than Mor Spirit. He is going to have the lead though and there isn't much other real speed in there. Still, I can't see them just letting him walk around the track. And you saw what happened when he got a little pressure from Uncle Lino in the SA Derby. He was a stone cold run-off. I expect the blinkers will be off on Saturday. That may help him relax a little more. But he can only do it one way.


It comes down to price, JORR, and luck. If you give me 10-1 or better on Danzig Candy, I'm on him.

Still kicking myself for letting Creator go at the price he got.

Rube you don't need anybody's approval on your pick ...go for it

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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:37 am 
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Hussra wrote:
33 to 1 for Danzig Candy on Bovada


Great price.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z5OPMxQa6A

Interestingly Danzig Candy had the blinkers on in this race. The conditions were fast, as it will be on Saturday.


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
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spmack wrote:
I'm all about Nyquist. Sorry everyone. I know that isn't a lot of analysis, but who's going to go with him?


I appreciate your view, nonetheless.

You remind me of a mistake I've made betting this race before: "Don't overlook the obvious."


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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 12:01 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 5/7 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:34 pm 
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Isn't it a big red flag that Nyquist only posted a speed figure of 97 in his last race (G1) and regressed from his previous race speed figure of 103 (G2)?

Based on that fact alone, I would say he's not the best horse in the field.

Speed figures indicate that Exaggertor should be the favorite.


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