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FavreFan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:18 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Noah's attitude is going to be his biggest problem.


I very much disagree. I think he has a fantastic attitude. The coach he had an argument with and got suspended for, is one of his closest mentors on the team now. This kid gives it 100% every single second he is out there a la Iverson. He deeply cares about winning. He has consistently shown the willingness to put team ahead of self. I love his attitude and how he comports himself.

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Brick
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:23 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Noah's attitude is going to be his biggest problem.


I very much disagree. I think he has a fantastic attitude. The coach he had an argument with and got suspended for, is one of his closest mentors on the team now. This kid gives it 100% every single second he is out there a la Iverson. He deeply cares about winning. He has consistently shown the willingness to put team ahead of self. I love his attitude and how he comports himself.

Just wait. He doesn't know when to shut his mouth and is going to be an unpopular figure in the locker room. I predict that there will be yearly drama with him like we saw during the season. He will be too willing to criticize teammates and his mouth will get him in trouble.

His attitude could be a great asset, but he will be unable to control it when he should. Last year's troubles are not solved.

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FavreFan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:25 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Noah's attitude is going to be his biggest problem.


I very much disagree. I think he has a fantastic attitude. The coach he had an argument with and got suspended for, is one of his closest mentors on the team now. This kid gives it 100% every single second he is out there a la Iverson. He deeply cares about winning. He has consistently shown the willingness to put team ahead of self. I love his attitude and how he comports himself.

Just wait. He doesn't know when to shut his mouth and is going to be an unpopular figure in the locker room. I predict that there will be yearly drama with him like we saw during the season. He will be too willing to criticize teammates and his mouth will get him in trouble.

His attitude could be a great asset, but he will be unable to control it when he should. Last year's troubles are not solved.


Like you said, I guess we'll see. I love the fact he called out a washed up, cancerous player in Ben Wallace. He's not intimidated by anyone and he calls out his teammates if they arent playing hard and arent playing to win. I like that. If that rubs players the wrong way, I dont want those players on the team.

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Tall Midget
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:30 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
FavreFan wrote:

I get your point, but it doesnt effect mine. Noah sure as hell wont be a deal-breaker to any team trying to deal Beasley. Therefore, I would move Hinrich or Gordon as you suggested instead of Noah. Gooden's expiring contract would also be more valuable than Noah. I'd rather move Tyrus instead of Noah also, and he would probably be at least as valuable as Noah. Noah is our ONLY Center. Gray isnt even necessarily a decent backup, let alone a starter. I think Noah will be Chandler-like guy in 2 years so I dont think its worth dealing him right now when his value isnt much.

Also I get your point about worrying about the peripheral instead of the core, but why cant you worry about both? All great GM's do, see RC Buford.



I guess I'm not sure what your point was. If it's that you wouldn't want to trade Noah to acquire Beasley, then I agree. If it's that you wouldn't trade Noah to acquire Beasley, then I vehemently disagree. The Bulls have no core players, and thus everyone's for sale as far as I am concerned.


Obviously I WOULD trade Noah for Beasley if it came down to that. My point was two-fold.

1.) Noah is more valuable to us then most other teams. He has less value then Gordon, Hinrich, Tyrus, Gooden, etc. I would rather give up one of those guys, because we are deep at all their positions. Noah is our only Center. So therefore, it would be unnecessary to trade him and therefore we shouldnt. If Riley was erratic enough to demand we include him, I guess I would but that wouldnt make sense for the Heat.

2.) A good GM doesnt just focus on core and not role players. Core players will do nothing for you if you cant fill out the rest of the roster, look at KG in Minnesota.


1)Noah may be our only center, but he's not a particularly good one. As I said, I would prefer to keep him but wouldn't care too much if he had to be included in a trade for a player who I think will be significantly better.

2)Obviously any championship team needs core and periphery players. But before you can have role players, you need to have a core. Role players are guys who fill the gaps left open by the superstars. And KG's primary problem in Minnesota wasn't a lack of a supporting cast, as Jordan used to say; rather, it was that Minnesota only had one core player when two or three are needed for a championship.

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Tall Midget
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:30 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
FavreFan wrote:

I get your point, but it doesnt effect mine. Noah sure as hell wont be a deal-breaker to any team trying to deal Beasley. Therefore, I would move Hinrich or Gordon as you suggested instead of Noah. Gooden's expiring contract would also be more valuable than Noah. I'd rather move Tyrus instead of Noah also, and he would probably be at least as valuable as Noah. Noah is our ONLY Center. Gray isnt even necessarily a decent backup, let alone a starter. I think Noah will be Chandler-like guy in 2 years so I dont think its worth dealing him right now when his value isnt much.

Also I get your point about worrying about the peripheral instead of the core, but why cant you worry about both? All great GM's do, see RC Buford.



I guess I'm not sure what your point was. If it's that you wouldn't want to trade Noah to acquire Beasley, then I agree. If it's that you wouldn't trade Noah to acquire Beasley, then I vehemently disagree. The Bulls have no core players, and thus everyone's for sale as far as I am concerned.


Obviously I WOULD trade Noah for Beasley if it came down to that. My point was two-fold.

1.) Noah is more valuable to us then most other teams. He has less value then Gordon, Hinrich, Tyrus, Gooden, etc. I would rather give up one of those guys, because we are deep at all their positions. Noah is our only Center. So therefore, it would be unnecessary to trade him and therefore we shouldnt. If Riley was erratic enough to demand we include him, I guess I would but that wouldnt make sense for the Heat.

2.) A good GM doesnt just focus on core and not role players. Core players will do nothing for you if you cant fill out the rest of the roster, look at KG in Minnesota.


1)Noah may be our only center, but he's not a particularly good one. As I said, I would prefer to keep him but wouldn't care too much if he had to be included in a trade for a player who I think will be significantly better.

2)Obviously any championship team needs core and periphery players. But before you can have role players, you need to have a core. Role players are guys who fill the gaps left open by the superstars. And KG's primary problem in Minnesota wasn't a lack of a supporting cast, as Jordan used to say; rather, it was that Minnesota only had one core player when two or three are needed for a championship.

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Brick
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:32 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Like you said, I guess we'll see. I love the fact he called out a washed up, cancerous player in Ben Wallace. He's not intimidated by anyone and he calls out his teammates if they arent playing hard and arent playing to win. I like that. If that rubs players the wrong way, I dont want those players on the team.

95% of the time, his attitude will be a great benefit. It's that other 5% that is going to screw him over. It's a stupid decision to bash the team in the media as a rookie. Even if he's right, he's got to pay his dues.

His attitude could be his best asset, but I see him going overboard one too many times and it losing all respect he has from his teammates.

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Tall Midget
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:34 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Like you said, I guess we'll see. I love the fact he called out a washed up, cancerous player in Ben Wallace. He's not intimidated by anyone and he calls out his teammates if they arent playing hard and arent playing to win. I like that. If that rubs players the wrong way, I dont want those players on the team.

95% of the time, his attitude will be a great benefit. It's that other 5% that is going to screw him over. It's a stupid decision to bash the team in the media as a rookie. Even if he's right, he's got to pay his dues.

His attitude could be his best asset, but I see him going overboard one too many times and it losing all respect he has from his teammates.


Well, being pepetually late for practices doesn't seem like much of an asset to me. Based on what I've heard, he seems like quite a hypocrite. He criticizes others for their lack of effort but is hardly a role model himself.

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FavreFan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:40 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
1)Noah may be our only center, but he's not a particularly good one. As I said, I would prefer to keep him but wouldn't care too much if he had to be included in a trade for a player who I think will be significantly better.

2)Obviously any championship team needs core and periphery players. But before you can have role players, you need to have a core. Role players are guys who fill the gaps left open by the superstars. And KG's primary problem in Minnesota wasn't a lack of a supporting cast, as Jordan used to say; rather, it was that Minnesota only had one core player when two or three are needed for a championship.


Noah is a good Center. He had a very decent rookie season. He was technically more efficient then Horford and Durant. With 30 minutes a game he will average 10-10 with a couple blocks and a steal. You cant write a player off in the NBA after a rookie season, especially one in which he exceeded his critics expectations.

I still dont think you are getting my point on the role players. You dont NEED to have core players in place before role players. We have alot of role players in place right now. I think Noah will probably become almost as good as Tyson Chandler. We shouldnt trade him. We should get rid of some other guys and keep him. He will not be a deal-breaker in any blockbuster trade at this point.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:42 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Like you said, I guess we'll see. I love the fact he called out a washed up, cancerous player in Ben Wallace. He's not intimidated by anyone and he calls out his teammates if they arent playing hard and arent playing to win. I like that. If that rubs players the wrong way, I dont want those players on the team.

95% of the time, his attitude will be a great benefit. It's that other 5% that is going to screw him over. It's a stupid decision to bash the team in the media as a rookie. Even if he's right, he's got to pay his dues.

His attitude could be his best asset, but I see him going overboard one too many times and it losing all respect he has from his teammates.


Well, being pepetually late for practices doesn't seem like much of an asset to me. Based on what I've heard, he seems like quite a hypocrite. He criticizes others for their lack of effort but is hardly a role model himself.


Can you show me a link to this stuff you've heard? I've never heard people call him out for his effort. Thats his best asset. He seems like a very selfless, do all the little things guy. I dont remember hearing him being perpetually late for practices and not giving effort. I've always heard the opposite.

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Coast2Coast
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Good thoughts, guys. Rose is my guy with the #1 pick. I'm not convinced that at 6-7, Beasley will be a flat out stone cold killer. I don't think he will be a consistent double-double guy, but he doesn't have to be to still be the best inside scorer on this team, as currently constructed. There is nobody on this team I'd rather have than Beasley. But that would be only after taking Rose first. The challenge is convincing Miami to take Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, whatever package of players they want...for Beasley. Why would they do that? Would that make the Heat better than taking Beasley? Doubtful. Hell, I'd trade two of those three guys for Mayo.
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Coast2Coast wrote:
Good thoughts, guys. Rose is my guy with the #1 pick. I'm not convinced that at 6-7, Beasley will be a flat out stone cold killer. I don't think he will be a consistent double-double guy, but he doesn't have to be to still be the best inside scorer on this team, as currently constructed. There is nobody on this team I'd rather have than Beasley. But that would be only after taking Rose first. The challenge is convincing Miami to take Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, whatever package of players they want...for Beasley. Why would they do that? Would that make the Heat better than taking Beasley? Doubtful. Hell, I'd trade two of those three guys for Mayo.


Riley is notorious for hating to rebuild. He's constantly in the win-now mode. I could see him taking the right package for the 2 pick, especially since he doesnt like Beasley as much as others do supposedly. We would obviously need to take Mark Blount back. Like Nas has been harping on though, Pax has shown an absolute unwillingness to pull the trigger on a major trade. Like Bill Simmons says, he's not a GM in the National Basketball Association, but the No Balls Association.

I dont want Mayo. Im not convinced he has the decision making ability nor the maturity to develop into the Gil Arenas many make him out to be. Also Im not sold on his defense.

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Pax is gonna take Rose. No doubt.

If Pax if feeling uncertain he can rest assured by using the scouting ability of Pat Riley.

From all reports Riley likes Mayo better than Beasley. That's who he's gonna take.

So, if you respect Riley, then Rose is certainly better than Beasley if Riley deems Mayo better than Beasley. Why wouldn't you respect Riley?
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Tall Midget
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:21 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:

Can you show me a link to this stuff you've heard? I've never heard people call him out for his effort. Thats his best asset. He seems like a very selfless, do all the little things guy. I dont remember hearing him being perpetually late for practices and not giving effort. I've always heard the opposite.


Brian Hanley talks about Noah's attitude problems quite frequently on the Score. He is also the Bulls beat writer for the Sun-Times. According to Hanley, perpetual tardiness was a big problem for Noah last season.

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Tall Midget
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:33 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
1)Noah may be our only center, but he's not a particularly good one. As I said, I would prefer to keep him but wouldn't care too much if he had to be included in a trade for a player who I think will be significantly better.

2)Obviously any championship team needs core and periphery players. But before you can have role players, you need to have a core. Role players are guys who fill the gaps left open by the superstars. And KG's primary problem in Minnesota wasn't a lack of a supporting cast, as Jordan used to say; rather, it was that Minnesota only had one core player when two or three are needed for a championship.


Noah is a good Center. He had a very decent rookie season. He was technically more efficient then Horford and Durant. With 30 minutes a game he will average 10-10 with a couple blocks and a steal. You cant write a player off in the NBA after a rookie season, especially one in which he exceeded his critics expectations.

I still dont think you are getting my point on the role players. You dont NEED to have core players in place before role players. We have alot of role players in place right now. I think Noah will probably become almost as good as Tyson Chandler. We shouldnt trade him. We should get rid of some other guys and keep him. He will not be a deal-breaker in any blockbuster trade at this point.


As far as I can tell, your whole point is that you like Noah and don't want to trade him. Fine. I don't want to trade him either, but certainly wouldn't confuse him with a cornerstone player and wouldn't care too much if he had to be moved in the right deal. You say he won't be the key to a blockbuster deal. That's probably true. It's also true that he won't be the key to a championship team, although you seem reluctant to admit this fact. I will always be willing to move a role player if doing so means I can acquire someone who will be a star.

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Tall Midget
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:36 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I hope you guys realize the Bulls can't trade Deng or Gordon yet.


I knew that, but then forgot about it. My ideas for the Bulls are all speculative. My only point is that I would do just about anything to get both Rose and Beasley in the draft. I don't know enough about Mayo to have an opinion on him.

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Tall Midget
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Coast2Coast wrote:
Good thoughts, guys. Rose is my guy with the #1 pick. I'm not convinced that at 6-7, Beasley will be a flat out stone cold killer. I don't think he will be a consistent double-double guy, but he doesn't have to be to still be the best inside scorer on this team, as currently constructed. There is nobody on this team I'd rather have than Beasley. But that would be only after taking Rose first. The challenge is convincing Miami to take Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, whatever package of players they want...for Beasley. Why would they do that? Would that make the Heat better than taking Beasley? Doubtful. Hell, I'd trade two of those three guys for Mayo.


Beasley is not just an inside guy. I think he will play SF in the pros and will do very well there. From what I can tell, he can score from just about anywhere on the court.

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Tall Midget wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
1)Noah may be our only center, but he's not a particularly good one. As I said, I would prefer to keep him but wouldn't care too much if he had to be included in a trade for a player who I think will be significantly better.

2)Obviously any championship team needs core and periphery players. But before you can have role players, you need to have a core. Role players are guys who fill the gaps left open by the superstars. And KG's primary problem in Minnesota wasn't a lack of a supporting cast, as Jordan used to say; rather, it was that Minnesota only had one core player when two or three are needed for a championship.


Noah is a good Center. He had a very decent rookie season. He was technically more efficient then Horford and Durant. With 30 minutes a game he will average 10-10 with a couple blocks and a steal. You cant write a player off in the NBA after a rookie season, especially one in which he exceeded his critics expectations.

I still dont think you are getting my point on the role players. You dont NEED to have core players in place before role players. We have alot of role players in place right now. I think Noah will probably become almost as good as Tyson Chandler. We shouldnt trade him. We should get rid of some other guys and keep him. He will not be a deal-breaker in any blockbuster trade at this point.


As far as I can tell, your whole point is that you like Noah and don't want to trade him. Fine. I don't want to trade him either, but certainly wouldn't confuse him with a cornerstone player and wouldn't care too much if he had to be moved in the right deal. You say he won't be the key to a blockbuster deal. That's probably true. It's also true that he won't be the key to a championship team, although you seem reluctant to admit this fact. I will always be willing to move a role player if doing so means I can acquire someone who will be a star.

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Nas wrote:
There you go again FF using the PER. It's bullshit.


It's no more of bullshit than you saying Rose averaged 5 asts and 3 TO's so he sucks. Using stats is using stats, regardless. We both agree they arent everything, but they can be used to support an argument, they just shouldnt be used as the sole basis for one. Noah was a very productive player last year when he saw time. The Bulls were terribly mismanaged all season long, which is probably why he didnt play more. All Im saying, and what his PER suggests, is that with starter's minutes he will give you starter's production. If he gets 30+ minutes a game next season he will average 10 boards and 2 blocks a game, as well as make a high amount of hustle plays.

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I dont follow it too closely, but I dont think any role player has a higher PER then Kobe. In this case though, I think PER accurately reflects how good Noah can be given starters minutes, which I think he earned last year.

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Derrick Rose said he wants to win MVP next season. We're in good hands.

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Beardown
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:18 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Derrick Rose said he wants to win MVP next season. We're in good hands.


Well, I want to bang a hot bitch. That's not gonna happen. It's the right pick but he's not gonna win the MVP next year. I'm glad he thinks that way but I don't think he'll be an MVP candidate until his 3rd year.

Winning Rookie of the year should be his goal. But, keep in mind, he'll have to compete with Greg Oden for that, as well as Beasley, since Oden missed the entire season last year.
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Beardown wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Derrick Rose said he wants to win MVP next season. We're in good hands.


Well, I want to bang a hot bitch. It's not gonna happen. It's the right pick but he's not gonna win the MVP next year. I'm glad he thinks that way but I don't think he'll be and MVP candidate until his 3rd year.

Winning Rookie of the year should be his goal. But keep in mind he'll have to compete with Greg Oden for that, as well as Beasley, since Oden missed the entire season last year.


The NBA doesnt work that way. Oden cant win ROY. I agree Rose has no chance of winning MVP but its cool that he said that, although if he was gonna go the route of impossibly high goals it'd be better if it was team oriented and he said his goal was to win a championship next season.

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Beardown
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Why can't Oden win it? He didn't play one game last year. Are you sure he's not eligible?
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Beardown wrote:
Why can't Oden win it? He didn't play one game last year. Are you sure he's not eligible?


Im positive. Not sure why, but thats the rule.

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My Coach Vinny
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:15 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I see why Rose doesn't like to talk to the media. I don't want to say he has a little Hester in him but he needs a lot of help.

That Simeon education really paid off.

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Beardown
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:23 pm 
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Rose isn't Hester dumb. He's a little shy. Yeah, he's a little slow too but who cares? Just become a 20-12 guy, help the Bulls win titles and that's all that matters.
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Beardown
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:23 pm 
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I'll bet Rose throws out the first pitch at one of the Cubs/Sox games.


Last edited by Beardown on Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MattInTheCrown
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I see why Rose doesn't like to talk to the media. I don't want to say he has a little Hester in him but he needs a lot of help. His agent should have helped him out a little more. He is going to have to do a lot of interviews and as of now he can't really say more then 4 words.

Yeah. Exciting player, insanely unexciting interview.

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Beardown
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:26 pm 
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He's also a 19 year old kid. You have to remember that.
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MattInTheCrown
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:26 pm 
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Thinking about it, this year's draft is very deep in terms of both talent, and crappy interviews. Watching the pre-draft shows this week, and seeing the post-pick interviews, I must say I'm as wowed by the utter lack of thoughtfulness as I am with the high level of young talent.

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