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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:32 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
I am still waiting for NME to tell me why goat coach belichik keeps losing to middling teams by scores like 0-34. Between about 2001-2017ish he seemed to be doing really good. I wonder what happened afterwards if coaches are singularly important to a teams success?





You’ll be waiting a long time for that comment because I never said they are ‘singularly’ important. My argument is that they are about equal to one another and both valuable. And there are examples of them being separate from one another with mixed results while together they maximize the potential of a team.


Brady is an outlier in that he left and immediately won a ring (but still had a great coach).. he didn’t win after the coach left and had an 8-9 season by year 3.. but Breese never won without Payton, and as I mentioned earlier even when a QB has an elite level season their team can still go 4-12 like Houston did when Watson lead the league in passing. Stafford was terrific in Detroit but needed an elite coach to win it all..


They are both just as valuable as one another and can suffer when the other isn’t present.


Still disagree - id say the split is 60% QB and 40% good coach. Why are you calling Arians a great coach? I actually think Arians works against your argument. In Arizona he had successful seasons when Carson Palmer was healthy/around. When he left the numbers plummeted. Arians had three straight sub 500 seasons until guess who walked in the door.

Brady isn't an outlier.

Manning won with Dungy and won with Fox.
Brady won with Belichik and Arians
Rodgers went to NFC title games with McCarthy and McMetrosexual

You still haven't addressed by Belichiks teams now suck. And the same with Tomlin. And the same with Payton. You're not answering the question because an honest answer destroys your contention.

You get a good coach in the door and maybe you can be above 500 depending on the play of the QB. Coaches are dependent on QBs more than the other way around.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:25 am 
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Yes, outside of a coach who created an innovative offense or defense, their success of failure comes down to the quarterback. A great quarterback can overcome the shortcomings of a good, mediocre, or bad coach and still have success. They can occasionally win a SB with one.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am 
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Patriot success was built on defense as much, if not moreso, than offense

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:51 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Still disagree - id say the split is 60% QB and 40% good coach.



And I'd say its roughly 50/50.. theres room for a slide in either direction % wise but when all things are equal, both being good or great its pretty even. The QB only accounts for 1 side of the ball while a head coach (in most cases) has to account for all phases. They develop players (like QB's), put together schemes, scout the opponent, and in many cases call the plays. The QB goes out and executes -on one side of the ball. So in the case of a having a great coach, its pretty easy for them to have a 50% share of a teams success (or more).


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Why are you calling Arians a great coach? I actually think Arians works against your argument. In Arizona he had successful seasons when Carson Palmer was healthy/around. When he left the numbers plummeted. Arians had three straight sub 500 seasons until guess who walked in the door.


Well if thats the measuring stick then I'll point out that Palmer was:

4-12
4-5
and 4-12 respectfully in his 3 seasons prior to teaming up with Ariens in Arizona where they had some shared success.

Prior to Arizona Ariens was 9-3 has a lame duck interim coach at Indy where if Im not mistaken he was awarded coach of the year honors, and it was well deserved. Ariens also had a well regarded career as the Steelers offensive coordinator where he was part of 2 SB wins, and played a role in Big Bens development.. and that was prior to his involvement with Palmer. He also had success with Brady (as we know).. health concerns hampered him at times along with his getting into an HC position at an advanced age (oldest HC to win an SB) so his reign isn't as long as some others but he has by all measures a pretty successful resume.


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Brady isn't an outlier.




He is in the sense that he left the 'greatest coach ever' to win in his very 1st season without him, silencing some of his critics. Some of the players you go on to mention did not accomplish this feat, they needed some time to adjust or flat out didn't win a ring at all after a coaching change.


Quote:
Manning won with Dungy and won with Fox.
Brady won with Belichik and Arians
Rodgers went to NFC title games with McCarthy and McMetrosexual



I understand why you'd want to try and slide Manning in here and maybe hope no one caught it but.. that final SB was a gift from the defense that year as Manning could barley throw the ball beyond 15 yards by time the playoffs rolled around. That was a team carried by the defense and an SB won by the defense -one of the greatest defenses of the last 15 years or so, lead by a defensive minded HC in Fox.

Brady won with both coaches, true.. but we'll dive more into this in a second.

Rodgers is great (as we know all too well as Bears fans) and certainly is capable of carrying a team.. as I mentioned in my opening salvo theres room to slide the scale depending on the player/coach and Rodgers is a player I'm ok doing that with. He definitely carried the Packers these last few years, no argument. However, he did not win a ring with Frenchy, and I wouldnt call McCarthy a slouch as a head coach.. especially given how McCarthy has performed with Dallas.. no one thought he'd be able to stack back to back 12 win teams in a row there and have them being talked about as contenders for a 3rd year in a row. He's a better coach than he gets credit for.



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You still haven't addressed by Belichiks teams now suck. And the same with Tomlin. And the same with Payton. You're not answering the question because an honest answer destroys your contention.



lol ok.. you say 60% for the QB while I say 50% (again all things being equal). We're only 10% apart, theres no destruction on either side of this debate with a 10% margin.


That said.. Billy B was 7-9 immediately after Bradys departure, then 10-7, and 8-9 before this year which has been bad so far for sure. But the Pats were not terrible by any means during that stretch, terrible is the Bears and Carolina. But the Pats were very competitive for a couple of those seasons after Brady and now being 4 seasons removed I'd say Bradys departure has little to do with whats going on with the Pats currently.


My take on this was briefly touched on in one of my earlier responses to you but I'll add to it. With players, they age out physically, with coaches they get aged out and burnt out mentally and I'd say thats what we're seeing with Bill. The game can pass you by at some point. I'd also add that when we're talking about 2 great things that make something whole (ie great QB and great Coach) it stands to reason that when you remove one half of that and don't replace it with something better or of equal value, that thing will suffer for it. In this case, thats the Pats suffering about 4 games without their GOAT QB..


..not much different than Brady suffering about the same after Ariens left after their 2nd season.. the Bucs were a 13 win team in Brady and Ariens final season together, and an 8 win team immediately after and in Bradys final season. So if I have to answer why Bill fell off, answer why Brady did without Ariens (who is a good coach)?


As for Tomlin? You might want to slow your role on that one.. they were 9-7 in Bens final year, and 9-8 the year after.. not a big drop off to be honest. And they're currently 3-2 in the 2nd year with no Ben. So, thats a wait and see imo.



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You get a good coach in the door and maybe you can be above 500 depending on the play of the QB. Coaches are dependent on QBs more than the other way around.



No I dont think thats true. You get a good coach (or even a great one) you can make Brock Purdy into a rock star, you can still sniff the SB with Jimmy G, you can actually get to an SB and fall short with Jarred Goff.. on the other hand, you can lead the NFL as a passer like Watson did and still go 4-12, you can put up terrific numbers and be regarded as one of the top QB's in the leauge but still lead a team to a record under .500 8 out of 12 years like Stafford did with the Lions and so on.

I really think this is much more nuanced than youre giving it credit for. Coaching is extremely important in the game of football, no player is really above it because so much depends on everything theyre surrounded with.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:47 pm 
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Every quarterback can't win with trash. Letting Jakobi Meyers walk was criminal.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:30 am 
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Bill was an innovative coach, and he wasn't doing horribly with Bledsoe. He's a bottom half player personnel/GM guy, however, and so his current teams can't do shit. When he had Scott Pioli and others doing that kind of stuff for him, they gave him enough tools to win.

A great coach can take a 5 win team and innovate enough to consistently overachieve and win 9-10 games. Then free agents want to play there, and it now becomes a 9 win team that can consistently win 12. Rinse and repeat.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:35 am 
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Belichick is 71. Father time is undefeated. He's probably not a very good coach now in large part because he is 71.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:04 am 
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Chet Coppock's Fur Coat wrote:
Bill was an innovative coach, and he wasn't doing horribly with Bledsoe. He's a bottom half player personnel/GM guy, however, and so his current teams can't do shit. When he had Scott Pioli and others doing that kind of stuff for him, they gave him enough tools to win.

A great coach can take a 5 win team and innovate enough to consistently overachieve and win 9-10 games. Then free agents want to play there, and it now becomes a 9 win team that can consistently win 12. Rinse and repeat.


The Patriots drafted horribly for years but Brady made up for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:30 am 
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I don't like giving coaches full control of front office. It so rarely works you would think they wouldn't want to the burden

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:53 pm 
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Franky T wrote:
Nas wrote:
Franky T wrote:
One Post wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Steeler Nation wants Tomlin gone, I hope Kevin Warren is already talking to Tomlin's agent


The Steelers haven't fired a coach since LBJ was president.

And they aren't starting with Tomlin. He might leave on his own, but he ain't getting fired.


Apparently, neither is Matt Canada.

Bye week after this week. Now is the time to do it.

Well, he gone. Step in the right direction. Just hope it's not too late in the season to make a difference. We shall see if there is any improvement in Pickett's play.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:35 pm 
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There was a mutiny about to happen. A lot of locker room squawking. Unusual here.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:38 pm 
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The Tomlin and Belichick Way was always more about Big Ben and Tom Terrific. Both have sucked with more influence.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/diontae-jo ... 15615.html

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:54 pm 
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Nas wrote:
The Tomlin and Belichick Way was always more about Big Ben and Tom Terrific. Both have sucked with more influence.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/diontae-jo ... 15615.html

If your argument is having a HOF quarterback helps a coach I agree with you.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:12 pm 
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Franky T wrote:
Nas wrote:
The Tomlin and Belichick Way was always more about Big Ben and Tom Terrific. Both have sucked with more influence.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/diontae-jo ... 15615.html

If your argument is having a HOF quarterback helps a coach I agree with you.


Tomlin also had multiple HoF DCs, a great GM, and the greatest organization in sports. At least Belichick thought there was something there with Brady. Outside of squandering elite rosters, what has Tomlin done with his influence?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:20 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Franky T wrote:
Nas wrote:
The Tomlin and Belichick Way was always more about Big Ben and Tom Terrific. Both have sucked with more influence.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/diontae-jo ... 15615.html

If your argument is having a HOF quarterback helps a coach I agree with you.


Tomlin also had multiple HoF DCs, a great GM, and the greatest organization in sports. At least Belichick thought there was something there with Brady. Outside of squandering elite rosters, what has Tomlin done with his influence?

I'm not arguing he's a better coach than Belichick, but he's better than most. Should he have had more success in the playoffs throughout his tenure, yeah, probably.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:44 pm 
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This will work like firing Arians worked years ago


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:45 pm 
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IMHO I could not tell you what Tomlin does as a coach outside of team building and motivation. He keeps his team together all the time at a high level and that has worth.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:59 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
IMHO I could not tell you what Tomlin does as a coach outside of team building and motivation. He keeps his team together all the time at a high level and that has worth.


TJ Watt and Big Ben were/are not fans of his. Those were/are the best players. He enabled a lot of guys that destroyed SB caliber teams. Like Lovie, he's been a father figure to a lot of black men who never knew what that was. Lovie was a favorite of the blacks and the whites though. They all still talk about him like he walked on water. That's real leadership.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:10 pm 
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Nas wrote:
pittmike wrote:
IMHO I could not tell you what Tomlin does as a coach outside of team building and motivation. He keeps his team together all the time at a high level and that has worth.


TJ Watt and Big Ben were/are not fans of his. Those were/are the best players. He enabled a lot of guys that destroyed SB caliber teams. Like Lovie, he's been a father figure to a lot of black men who never knew what that was. Lovie was a favorite of the blacks and the whites though. They all still talk about him like he walked on water. That's real leadership.


I sure would pick Lovie over Tomlin. Ben didn't like anyone that wasn't his servant and I never heard bad things as far as Watt and Tomlin. Either way Tomlin is effective. Some coaches are the experts and tacticians and others are the people manager/motivator types. It can work several ways.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:47 pm 
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Franky T wrote:
Franky T wrote:
Nas wrote:
Franky T wrote:
One Post wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Steeler Nation wants Tomlin gone, I hope Kevin Warren is already talking to Tomlin's agent


The Steelers haven't fired a coach since LBJ was president.

And they aren't starting with Tomlin. He might leave on his own, but he ain't getting fired.


Apparently, neither is Matt Canada.

Bye week after this week. Now is the time to do it.

Well, he gone. Step in the right direction. Just hope it's not too late in the season to make a difference. We shall see if there is any improvement in Pickett's play.

Over 400 yards of offense for the first time in 58 games. Had another TD that was called incomplete that Tomlin failed to challenge.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:26 pm 
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3 points so far against the Cardinals...can they bring back Canada again and fire him ?

:lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:46 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
3 points so far against the Cardinals...can they bring back Canada again and fire him ?

:lol: :lol:

Any meaningful Bears games coming up other than hoping they lose for a higher draft pick?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:55 pm 
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We have the Panthers for that, try and keep up, 'Low T


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:07 pm 
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That really was a low energy post by Franky.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:26 pm 
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Call me crazy but I would rather my team have meaningful December games than yet another failed rebuild 40 years in the making. Enjoy it though.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:27 pm 
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The Steelers are having meaningful December games this year?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:32 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
The Steelers are having meaningful December games this year?


Yes. Not today apparently but yes.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:34 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Yes, outside of a coach who created an innovative offense or defense, their success of failure comes down to the quarterback. A great quarterback can overcome the shortcomings of a good, mediocre, or bad coach and still have success. They can occasionally win a SB with one.

ImageImage

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Last edited by Nardi on Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:36 pm 
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Nothing meaningful about being blown out by the Cardinals at home.


Fun fact, Trey McBride was raised by 2 dykes. First time in NFL history.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:44 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
The Steelers are having meaningful December games this year?


Yes. Not today apparently but yes.


Mitchell (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky will lead the Steelers to the Super Bowl.

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