veganfan21 wrote:
Still disagree - id say the split is 60% QB and 40% good coach.
And I'd say its roughly 50/50.. theres room for a slide in either direction % wise but when all things are equal, both being good or great its pretty even. The QB only accounts for 1 side of the ball while a head coach (in most cases) has to account for all phases. They develop players (like QB's), put together schemes, scout the opponent, and in many cases call the plays. The QB goes out and executes -on one side of the ball. So in the case of a having a great coach, its pretty easy for them to have a 50% share of a teams success (or more).
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Why are you calling Arians a great coach? I actually think Arians works against your argument. In Arizona he had successful seasons when Carson Palmer was healthy/around. When he left the numbers plummeted. Arians had three straight sub 500 seasons until guess who walked in the door.
Well if thats the measuring stick then I'll point out that Palmer was:
4-12
4-5
and 4-12 respectfully in his 3 seasons prior to teaming up with Ariens in Arizona where they had some shared success.
Prior to Arizona Ariens was 9-3 has a lame duck interim coach at Indy where if Im not mistaken he was awarded coach of the year honors, and it was well deserved. Ariens also had a well regarded career as the Steelers offensive coordinator where he was part of 2 SB wins, and played a role in Big Bens development.. and that was prior to his involvement with Palmer. He also had success with Brady (as we know).. health concerns hampered him at times along with his getting into an HC position at an advanced age (oldest HC to win an SB) so his reign isn't as long as some others but he has by all measures a pretty successful resume.
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Brady isn't an outlier.
He is in the sense that he left the 'greatest coach ever' to win in his very 1st season without him, silencing some of his critics. Some of the players you go on to mention did not accomplish this feat, they needed some time to adjust or flat out didn't win a ring at all after a coaching change.
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Manning won with Dungy and won with Fox.
Brady won with Belichik and Arians
Rodgers went to NFC title games with McCarthy and McMetrosexual
I understand why you'd want to try and slide Manning in here and maybe hope no one caught it but.. that final SB was a gift from the defense that year as Manning could barley throw the ball beyond 15 yards by time the playoffs rolled around. That was a team carried by the defense and an SB won by the defense -one of the greatest defenses of the last 15 years or so, lead by a defensive minded HC in Fox.
Brady won with both coaches, true.. but we'll dive more into this in a second.
Rodgers is great (as we know all too well as Bears fans) and certainly is capable of carrying a team.. as I mentioned in my opening salvo theres room to slide the scale depending on the player/coach and Rodgers is a player I'm ok doing that with. He definitely carried the Packers these last few years, no argument. However, he did not win a ring with Frenchy, and I wouldnt call McCarthy a slouch as a head coach.. especially given how McCarthy has performed with Dallas.. no one thought he'd be able to stack back to back 12 win teams in a row there and have them being talked about as contenders for a 3rd year in a row. He's a better coach than he gets credit for.
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You still haven't addressed by Belichiks teams now suck. And the same with Tomlin. And the same with Payton. You're not answering the question because an honest answer destroys your contention.
lol ok.. you say 60% for the QB while I say 50% (again all things being equal). We're only 10% apart, theres no destruction on either side of this debate with a 10% margin.
That said.. Billy B was 7-9 immediately after Bradys departure, then 10-7, and 8-9 before this year which has been bad so far for sure. But the Pats were not terrible by any means during that stretch, terrible is the Bears and Carolina. But the Pats were very competitive for a couple of those seasons after Brady and now being 4 seasons removed I'd say Bradys departure has little to do with whats going on with the Pats currently.
My take on this was briefly touched on in one of my earlier responses to you but I'll add to it. With players, they age out physically, with coaches they get aged out and burnt out mentally and I'd say thats what we're seeing with Bill. The game can pass you by at some point. I'd also add that when we're talking about 2 great things that make something whole (ie great QB and great Coach) it stands to reason that when you remove one half of that and don't replace it with something better or of equal value, that thing will suffer for it. In this case, thats the Pats suffering about 4 games without their GOAT QB..
..not much different than Brady suffering about the same after Ariens left after their 2nd season.. the Bucs were a 13 win team in Brady and Ariens final season together, and an 8 win team immediately after and in Bradys final season. So if I have to answer why Bill fell off, answer why Brady did without Ariens (who is a good coach)?
As for Tomlin? You might want to slow your role on that one.. they were 9-7 in Bens final year, and 9-8 the year after.. not a big drop off to be honest. And they're currently 3-2 in the 2nd year with no Ben. So, thats a wait and see imo.
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You get a good coach in the door and maybe you can be above 500 depending on the play of the QB. Coaches are dependent on QBs more than the other way around.
No I dont think thats true. You get a good coach (or even a great one) you can make Brock Purdy into a rock star, you can still sniff the SB with Jimmy G, you can actually get to an SB and fall short with Jarred Goff.. on the other hand, you can lead the NFL as a passer like Watson did and still go 4-12, you can put up terrific numbers and be regarded as one of the top QB's in the leauge but still lead a team to a record under .500 8 out of 12 years like Stafford did with the Lions and so on.
I really think this is much more nuanced than youre giving it credit for. Coaching is extremely important in the game of football, no player is really above it because so much depends on everything theyre surrounded with.
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