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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2024 8:47 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Nas wrote:
The views of the women who helped educate the graduates don't matter because ALL nuns didn't object to the speech. That's an interesting take.

Those who object to the speech for valid reason are no less important than those objecting out of sheer ignorance.


Of course. Only the views of the people who didn't have an issue with the speech are valid.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2024 8:53 pm 
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Nas wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Nas wrote:
The views of the women who helped educate the graduates don't matter because ALL nuns didn't object to the speech. That's an interesting take.

Those who object to the speech for valid reason are no less important than those objecting out of sheer ignorance.


Of course. Only the views of the people who didn't have an issue with the speech are valid.

They’re all valid.

Validity is a spectrum.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2024 9:36 pm 
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I guess when you think about it, "capitalism is evil and also women should participate in it to the exclusion of having a loving family" is a weird position, but I'm still trying to crack the code on "transgenders for Palestine," and I kinda have to take these one at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2024 9:46 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
I guess when you think about it, "capitalism is evil and also women should participate in it to the exclusion of having a loving family" is a weird position, but I'm still trying to crack the code on "transgenders for Palestine," and I kinda have to take these one at a time.

Your avatar change :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2024 9:46 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Nas wrote:
The views of the women who helped educate the graduates don't matter because ALL nuns didn't object to the speech. That's an interesting take.

Those who object to the speech for valid reason are no less important than those objecting out of sheer ignorance.



Is their ignorance vincible, or invincible?

Because that's a pretty important distinction to make.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2024 9:53 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
You reference the nuns like it is all the nuns rather than one local house of one order. Even within that group it was most likely only the thoughts of the superior, since they are obedient


Here is the actual statement...

"Instead of promoting unity in our church, our nation, and the world, his comments seem to have fostered division," they wrote. "One of our concerns was the assertion that being a homemaker is the highest calling for a woman. We sisters have dedicated our lives to God and God's people, including the many women whom we have taught and influenced during the past 160 years. These women have made a tremendous difference in the world in their roles as wives and mothers and through their God-given gifts in leadership, scholarship, and their careers."

She does raise a couple of very valid points.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2024 9:58 pm 
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Franky T wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
I guess when you think about it, "capitalism is evil and also women should participate in it to the exclusion of having a loving family" is a weird position, but I'm still trying to crack the code on "transgenders for Palestine," and I kinda have to take these one at a time.

Your avatar change :lol: :lol:

Sophomore year of high school, I bought Airplane! on videocassette and we passed it around health class as sort of a samizdat until by the end of the semester we were all just quoting it constantly. Good times.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2024 10:04 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Nas wrote:
The views of the women who helped educate the graduates don't matter because ALL nuns didn't object to the speech. That's an interesting take.

Those who object to the speech for valid reason are no less important than those objecting out of sheer ignorance.



Is their ignorance vincible, or invincible?

Because that's a pretty important distinction to make.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Have to assume they can be disabused. Otherwise, what’s the point?

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2024 10:45 pm 
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Nas wrote:
The views of the women who helped educate the graduates don't matter because ALL nuns didn't object to the speech. That's an interesting take.


Appeal to authority. That’s an interesting fallacy

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2024 9:57 am 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Nas wrote:
The views of the women who helped educate the graduates don't matter because ALL nuns didn't object to the speech. That's an interesting take.

Those who object to the speech for valid reason are no less important than those objecting out of sheer ignorance.



Is their ignorance vincible, or invincible?

Because that's a pretty important distinction to make.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Have to assume they can be disabused. Otherwise, what’s the point?


I don't think it's a sin to disagree with the speech. But I agree with the point.
How long do you assume before concluding they can't/won't be disabused.

Remember what Christ said to Herod.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2024 10:21 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Nas wrote:
The views of the women who helped educate the graduates don't matter because ALL nuns didn't object to the speech. That's an interesting take.


Appeal to authority. That’s an interesting fallacy


You may have a point if that's what I was doing. You've essentially claimed that anyone who had an issue with the content of the speech didn't hear it. That their problems come from some fast moving telephone game or some general antipathy to the Catholics. Therefore, I thought it was reasonable to ask why the nuns had a similar view.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2024 11:09 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Nas wrote:
The views of the women who helped educate the graduates don't matter because ALL nuns didn't object to the speech. That's an interesting take.

Those who object to the speech for valid reason are no less important than those objecting out of sheer ignorance.



Is their ignorance vincible, or invincible?

Because that's a pretty important distinction to make.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Have to assume they can be disabused. Otherwise, what’s the point?


I don't think it's a sin to disagree with the speech. But I agree with the point.
How long do you assume before concluding they can't/won't be disabused.

Remember what Christ said to Herod.

Nothing?

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2024 5:55 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Franky T wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
I guess when you think about it, "capitalism is evil and also women should participate in it to the exclusion of having a loving family" is a weird position, but I'm still trying to crack the code on "transgenders for Palestine," and I kinda have to take these one at a time.

Your avatar change :lol: :lol:

Sophomore year of high school, I bought Airplane! on videocassette and we passed it around health class as sort of a samizdat until by the end of the semester we were all just quoting it constantly. Good times.


Youngsters. It was my (I believe) my junior year in college. To that point in my life I don't think I had ever laughed as hard as I did when I saw that movie.

EDIT: of course I had to look up the meaning of samizdat. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 8:28 am 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Nas wrote:
The views of the women who helped educate the graduates don't matter because ALL nuns didn't object to the speech. That's an interesting take.

Those who object to the speech for valid reason are no less important than those objecting out of sheer ignorance.



Is their ignorance vincible, or invincible?

Because that's a pretty important distinction to make.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Have to assume they can be disabused. Otherwise, what’s the point?


I don't think it's a sin to disagree with the speech. But I agree with the point.
How long do you assume before concluding they can't/won't be disabused.

Remember what Christ said to Herod.

Nothing?


Yes.

With that being said, how do we know when the exercise become pearls before swine?

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 8:39 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
You reference the nuns like it is all the nuns rather than one local house of one order. Even within that group it was most likely only the thoughts of the superior, since they are obedient


The Superior's reference was to this...

32: “This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was, as we have already said, revealed by our Divine Redeemer and by the Apostle of the Gentiles; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy council of Trent, and explained in ...

She was incorrect when she stated that Butker stated that being a homemaker was a higher calling.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 8:48 am 
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If you think Harrison Butker is bad, check out this well spoken Andrew Tate. He leaves a feminist basically speechless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igvlVx--xDA

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 9:38 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
You reference the nuns like it is all the nuns rather than one local house of one order. Even within that group it was most likely only the thoughts of the superior, since they are obedient


What's you favorite order? Light 'em up!

My aunt Ethel was a Sister of St. Francis of Mary Immaculate. She went by Sister Mary Candida.

That said, my favorite order is the Order of Discalced Carmelites.

Here's a funny story that illustrates that modern nuns may have the calling, but they're still Millennial brats:

https://stjosephsassociation.org/news/u ... 0monastery.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 11:43 am 
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Nardi wrote:
If you think Harrison Butker is bad, check out this well spoken Andrew Tate. He leaves a feminist basically speechless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igvlVx--xDA

How do you shut up a feminist? Put your wiener in her mouth.

I didn’t watch the video but I assume this is what he did.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 12:34 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Nardi wrote:
If you think Harrison Butker is bad, check out this well spoken Andrew Tate. He leaves a feminist basically speechless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igvlVx--xDA

How do you shut up a feminist? Put your wiener in her mouth.

I didn’t watch the video but I assume this is what he did.

Metaphorically.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:38 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Yes.

With that being said, how do we know when the exercise become pearls before swine?

I think in this type of scenario, which isn’t life or death, you hope the controversy forces people to listen to the actual speech and what was said. They don’t have to receive that message on the first try via an NFL kicker, but maybe it softens their resistance to the idea that the highest possible calling might not be prepping PowerPoints for board meetings.

I don’t see great reason to not have patience with this conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:50 pm 
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If you are around enough church folk and loser men, you'll find that the concensus is families would be better if women shutup and cook. Some women believe it too. I don't personally subscribe to that belief, but I've heard it for 5 decades. It's generally easy to ignore. I think the event triggered me. He could have said it during a press conference after a Super Bowl and I wouldn't have cared. Creating women weakens you.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:57 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Yes.

With that being said, how do we know when the exercise become pearls before swine?

I think in this type of scenario, which isn’t life or death, you hope the controversy forces people to listen to the actual speech and what was said. They don’t have to receive that message on the first try via an NFL kicker, but maybe it softens their resistance to the idea that the highest possible calling might not be prepping PowerPoints for board meetings.

I don’t see great reason to not have patience with this conversation.


I totally agree.

The reason for the response from the Benedictine nun was far from what the media portrayed it to be. I just felt that some of Butker's comments about bishops for instance were inappropriate for the occasion.

My wife has had great success with our children, as well as professionally. Being a homemaker is, and will forever be her greatest joy.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2024 9:00 pm 
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And that’s why patience is necessary.

Somebody can spend five decades misunderstanding a very simple thought and thinking its proponents losers. You can’t give up because an NFL kicker triggered some emotional responses.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:59 am 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Yes.

With that being said, how do we know when the exercise become pearls before swine?

I think in this type of scenario, which isn’t life or death, you hope the controversy forces people to listen to the actual speech and what was said. They don’t have to receive that message on the first try via an NFL kicker, but maybe it softens their resistance to the idea that the highest possible calling might not be prepping PowerPoints for board meetings.

I don’t see great reason to not have patience with this conversation.


Statistics bear out that generally, the young people of this nation have rejected the idea of devotion to corporate work over the last four years. There doesn't need to be a softening of resistance. It's already there according to just about every metric available. "Soft vacation", "antiwork", "quiet quitting" are phrases that did not exist before 2019. It has been trending that way for a couple of decades.

but they are also rejecting having children

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:13 am 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Yes.

With that being said, how do we know when the exercise become pearls before swine?

I think in this type of scenario, which isn’t life or death, you hope the controversy forces people to listen to the actual speech and what was said. They don’t have to receive that message on the first try via an NFL kicker, but maybe it softens their resistance to the idea that the highest possible calling might not be prepping PowerPoints for board meetings.

I don’t see great reason to not have patience with this conversation.
I think his message was poorly delivered though. You seem to be trying to change it to "Your work/career doesn't define you" which is something that most people would agree with and no one would really get upset about unless they were your boss. Instead, he went with the "hey ladies, your life doesn't start until you become a homemaker and you never have a career".

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:22 am 
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Brick wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Yes.

With that being said, how do we know when the exercise become pearls before swine?

I think in this type of scenario, which isn’t life or death, you hope the controversy forces people to listen to the actual speech and what was said. They don’t have to receive that message on the first try via an NFL kicker, but maybe it softens their resistance to the idea that the highest possible calling might not be prepping PowerPoints for board meetings.

I don’t see great reason to not have patience with this conversation.
I think his message was poorly delivered though. You seem to be trying to change it to "Your work/career doesn't define you" which is something that most people would agree with and no one would really get upset about unless they were your boss. Instead, he went with the "hey ladies, your life doesn't start until you become a homemaker and you never have a career".


No he didn't. He said they will have achieve all kinds of successes in their life but motherhood would be their greatest accomplishment. As I wrote at the beginning of this thread, 100 million women spoke those same words on mother's day.

but I agree, the overall message was poorly delivered. It sounded like a list of grievances rather than supporting points of a central theme

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:24 am 
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Brick wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Yes.

With that being said, how do we know when the exercise become pearls before swine?

I think in this type of scenario, which isn’t life or death, you hope the controversy forces people to listen to the actual speech and what was said. They don’t have to receive that message on the first try via an NFL kicker, but maybe it softens their resistance to the idea that the highest possible calling might not be prepping PowerPoints for board meetings.

I don’t see great reason to not have patience with this conversation.
I think his message was poorly delivered though. You seem to be trying to change it to "Your work/career doesn't define you" which is something that most people would agree with and no one would really get upset about unless they were your boss. Instead, he went with the "hey ladies, your life doesn't start until you become a homemaker and you never have a career".

His message wasn’t really about careers, it was about what he believes, as a Catholic, leads to the most purpose filled life. He contrasted that ideal with career accomplishments but he could’ve replaced the titles & promotions bit with the plot of live, laugh, love and it’s the same message.

You seem to be intentionally missing that part of it for some reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:26 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Brick wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Yes.

With that being said, how do we know when the exercise become pearls before swine?

I think in this type of scenario, which isn’t life or death, you hope the controversy forces people to listen to the actual speech and what was said. They don’t have to receive that message on the first try via an NFL kicker, but maybe it softens their resistance to the idea that the highest possible calling might not be prepping PowerPoints for board meetings.

I don’t see great reason to not have patience with this conversation.
I think his message was poorly delivered though. You seem to be trying to change it to "Your work/career doesn't define you" which is something that most people would agree with and no one would really get upset about unless they were your boss. Instead, he went with the "hey ladies, your life doesn't start until you become a homemaker and you never have a career".


No he didn't. He said they will have achieve all kinds of successes in their life but motherhood would be their greatest accomplishment. As I wrote at the beginning of this thread, 100 million women spoke those same words on mother's day.

but I agree, the overall message was poorly delivered. It sounded like a list of grievances rather than supporting points of a central theme

He’s a pro athlete so I think you have to set the bar pretty low.

Like people mugging Caitlin Clark, he attracted eyeballs.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:31 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Brick wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Yes.

With that being said, how do we know when the exercise become pearls before swine?

I think in this type of scenario, which isn’t life or death, you hope the controversy forces people to listen to the actual speech and what was said. They don’t have to receive that message on the first try via an NFL kicker, but maybe it softens their resistance to the idea that the highest possible calling might not be prepping PowerPoints for board meetings.

I don’t see great reason to not have patience with this conversation.
I think his message was poorly delivered though. You seem to be trying to change it to "Your work/career doesn't define you" which is something that most people would agree with and no one would really get upset about unless they were your boss. Instead, he went with the "hey ladies, your life doesn't start until you become a homemaker and you never have a career".


No he didn't. He said they will have achieve all kinds of successes in their life but motherhood would be their greatest accomplishment. As I wrote at the beginning of this thread, 100 million women spoke those same words on mother's day.

but I agree, the overall message was poorly delivered. It sounded like a list of grievances rather than supporting points of a central theme

Quote:
I can tell you that my beautiful wife, Isabelle, would be the first to say that her life truly started when she began living her vocation as a wife and as a mother. I'm on the stage today and able to be the man I am because I have a wife who leans into her vocation. I'm beyond blessed with the many talents God has given me, but it cannot be overstated that all of my success is made possible because a girl I met in band class back in middle school would convert to the faith, become my wife, and embrace one of the most important titles of all: homemaker.

She is a primary educator to our children. She is the one who ensures I never let football or my business become a distraction from that of a husband and father. She is the person that knows me best at my core, and it is through our marriage that, Lord willing, we will both attain salvation.

I say all of this to you because I have seen it firsthand how much happier someone can be when they disregard the outside noise and move closer and closer to God's will in their life. Isabelle's dream of having a career might not have come true, but if you asked her today if she has any regrets on her decision, she would laugh out loud, without hesitation, and say, “Heck, No.”


Again, the bold text and other similar things he said is what got him in trouble and then people were saying it was out of context but it really wasn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Butker
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:33 am 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
His message wasn’t really about careers, it was about what he believes, as a Catholic, leads to the most purpose filled life. He contrasted that ideal with career accomplishments but he could’ve replaced the titles & promotions bit with the plot of live, laugh, love and it’s the same message.

You seem to be intentionally missing that part of it for some reason.

His message was certainly about careers and how women should view them. It may not have been his only message.

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