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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:27 pm 
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NME wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:

I agree that the line and the coaching sucks too, but I was told that the "great ones" are able to overcome this. I admit you have been more reasonable in your analysis but on some of it I just can't remember if you were in with the herd or not actually.



Whats your opinion on this, do you think the great ones can?


My personal take is that it depends, I've seen Patrick Mahomes and Tom Brady fold in games where their O-line fell apart while I've also seen cats like Aaron Rodgers light the league up behind poor line play. I think its circumstantial.


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I do seem to remember you discounting some of the obvious red flags like size and performance against better college teams though. As we as low he performed in training camp and the preseason too. He has consistently struggled against Frontline quality defenses going back to his college days.
That has to be a cause for concern whether someone likes the kid or not.



Ok, thats fair but I did also provide details on why I felt that way. For example, Caleb is the same size as Mahomes. I also pointed out that batted down passes aren't mutually exclusive with being 'short' and there are metrics that prove that. As for his performance against ranked opponents? It certainly wasn't a deciding factor for Mahomes at the next level when he struggled just as much against certain competition.


Keep in mind there are those who will also discredit players that come from successful programs too saying that they were only good because they were surrounded by so much talent. Fields fell into this category and I defended him when people brought it up.


I could go on, but the point is I don't typically make generalized or sweeping statements (unless live in a game thread where emotions are running high lol).


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And I suspect that is why Moore was exacerbated last week. I suspect that it wasn't just due to that one pass. It probably was a reaction to what he has witnessed in the kid's play overall going back to training camp or mini camp.
By all accounts he didn't light it up there either.



I have a different opinion of this -I dont think his outburst was as personal as you may think. I think its more that he's tired of being in this situation, with Carolina, with the Bears last year.. and yet again in another developmental year with the same team. After all he was quick to sign this off season without trying to tie things up and reset the WR market like most other players of his caliber do. I dont think he has a personal problem with Caleb, I think he wants to win already and is frustrated that he continues to wind up in these developmental windows with teams.


I think more often than good or even great QBs will not be able to overcome terrible line play. The best QBs in history typically played behind good to great lines.
As far as Caleb goes it's not about his record against good college teams. It was about his performance. He played bad

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:29 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
Time To Throw and Pocket Time is about how long he has until pressure comes.

The whole point is he holds it too long. That's because he would rather scramble because he is a good to great runner and a terrible passer.


Brick I provided a stat which clearly stated that the pass blocking sucked and you're still arguing anyway. As stated you're too predictable dude. All you do is discredit whatever refutes what you have to say. It's old. There are other stats out there as well.

Now the guy you like is getting his ears pinned back and you claim it's about the line of a sudden. They always sucked. Not just this season

You are misusing the stat. Don't blame me for that.

He had more time to throw last year than any QB who threw more than 1 pass. Your stat, while interesting and it does tell a slightly different story on pressure doesn't change that. He holds the ball too long. That's a fact.


Brick are there any posts that you have ever made which attributed Justin Fields sacks to the Offensive Line? Just Asking A Question

He's not to blame for all the sacks. No QB is.

If the line was as bad as you say it is his duty to throw it quicker.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:42 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
As far as Caleb goes it's not about his record against good college teams. It was about his performance. He played bad




Mahomes had some rough performances too, not just losses. BTW, Mahomes isn't even the only example I could use. Tom Brady for example could never consistently break into the starting line up for Michigan and was used in rotation. There are of course more examples I could use but I think the best point to try and make here is that past success or failure in certain situations at the last level aren't always the best indicator of future successes or failures at the next.


Theres a lot of complexity that goes into a team sport like football. Its why theres no formula that has been tried and true for finding QB's at the next level. Whoever figures it out will become a billionaire.

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Last edited by NME on Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:43 pm 
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Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
Time To Throw and Pocket Time is about how long he has until pressure comes.

The whole point is he holds it too long. That's because he would rather scramble because he is a good to great runner and a terrible passer.


Brick I provided a stat which clearly stated that the pass blocking sucked and you're still arguing anyway. As stated you're too predictable dude. All you do is discredit whatever refutes what you have to say. It's old. There are other stats out there as well.

Now the guy you like is getting his ears pinned back and you claim it's about the line of a sudden. They always sucked. Not just this season

You are misusing the stat. Don't blame me for that.

He had more time to throw last year than any QB who threw more than 1 pass. Your stat, while interesting and it does tell a slightly different story on pressure doesn't change that. He holds the ball too long. That's a fact.


Brick are there any posts that you have ever made which attributed Justin Fields sacks to the Offensive Line? Just Asking A Question

He's not to blame for all the sacks. No QB is.

If the line was as bad as you say it is his duty to throw it quicker.


As stated previously there are other metrics to support that the line sucked. Interesting Caleb was sacked 7 times last week. Is there anything from you which said that he needed to "throw quicker" Just Asking A Question

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:48 pm 
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NME wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
As far as Caleb goes it's not about his record against good college teams. It was about his performance. He played bad




Mahomes had some rough performances too, not just losses. BTW, Mahomes isn't even the only example I could use. Tom Brady for example could never consistently break into the starting line up for Michigan and was used in rotation. There are of course more examples I could use but I think the best point to try and make here is that past success or failure in certain situations at the last level aren't always the best indicator of future successes or failures at the next.


Theres a lot of complexity that goes into a team sport like football. Its why theres no formula that has been tried and true for finding QB's at the next level. Whoever figures it out will become a billionaire.


Regardless of the sport how you perform against better competition is a tremendous indicator of the type of player you will be. Definitely a better indicator than when you do nothing but slay bums.

And again his height matters. Which is why his passesget tipped and why he will struggle passing from the pocket.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:08 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
Time To Throw and Pocket Time is about how long he has until pressure comes.

The whole point is he holds it too long. That's because he would rather scramble because he is a good to great runner and a terrible passer.


Brick I provided a stat which clearly stated that the pass blocking sucked and you're still arguing anyway. As stated you're too predictable dude. All you do is discredit whatever refutes what you have to say. It's old. There are other stats out there as well.

Now the guy you like is getting his ears pinned back and you claim it's about the line of a sudden. They always sucked. Not just this season

You are misusing the stat. Don't blame me for that.

He had more time to throw last year than any QB who threw more than 1 pass. Your stat, while interesting and it does tell a slightly different story on pressure doesn't change that. He holds the ball too long. That's a fact.


Brick are there any posts that you have ever made which attributed Justin Fields sacks to the Offensive Line? Just Asking A Question

He's not to blame for all the sacks. No QB is.

If the line was as bad as you say it is his duty to throw it quicker.


As stated previously there are other metrics to support that the line sucked. Interesting Caleb was sacked 7 times last week. Is there anything from you which said that he needed to "throw quicker" Just Asking A Question

Yes, in a response to you. :lol:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
No matter how the spin is going the kid is playing bad. And is widely inaccurate whenever he is throwing any pass other than a screen/dump off pass. He looks overmatched physically as well. You have to give him more time (2-3 years) but there is nothing other than blind faith on the part of those who thought that he was "Generational" to suggest that he will be much more than he currently happens to be

He's playing poorly. The signs are there.

He's not overmatched physically. Look at his rushing stats.

He took some bad sacks though. Experience will help that some.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:11 pm 
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Brick wrote:
He's playing poorly. The signs are there.

He's not overmatched physically. Look at his rushing stats.

He took some bad sacks though. Experience will help that some.


"Took Some bad sacks" :lol: Nothing which stated that he holds the ball too long however

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:14 pm 
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A "Sorry I was wrong" would have been better there.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:17 pm 
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Brick wrote:
A "Sorry I was wrong" would have been better there.
What took you so long?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:37 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Regardless of the sport how you perform against better competition is a tremendous indicator of the type of player you will be. Definitely a better indicator than when you do nothing but slay bums.



Not from college QB to NFL QB it isn't. If what youre saying was true Alabama and Georgia would be NFL QB factories. Many QB's that have gone on to be great in the NFL got beat up in college by better teams. Its a team sport, and the formula youre trying to use here doesnt work as an indicator for NFL success. If it did work, no one would ever miss on drafting QB's.. but they miss all the time because there is no known formula that exists to predict their NFL success.


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And again his height matters. Which is why his passesget tipped and why he will struggle passing from the pocket.



Explain why Patrick Mahomes doesn't have issues then -hes the same height roughly as Caleb. Explain why Aaron Rodgers who is close in height to Williams doesn't have issues with it


Explain why one of the shortest QB's in the NFL from 2019-2022 Drew Brees was the best in the NFL at not getting passes batted including going an entire season without a single batted pass (over 500 attempts)

Explain why Justin Fields and Cam Newton were amongst the worst in the NFL in % of passes batted during that same period.


Explain why Caleb didnt have any passes batted down against Houston despite having more pass atempts from the pocket and despite being under more pressure


There have been studies on this, metrics exist to evaluate it and the conclusion is that height isn't much of an indicator for these types of things. And I'll also reiterate that Caleb didn't have any problems with this in college either -and many of his pass attempts came from the pocket.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:43 pm 
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NME wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Regardless of the sport how you perform against better competition is a tremendous indicator of the type of player you will be. Definitely a better indicator than when you do nothing but slay bums.



Not from college QB to NFL QB it isn't. If what youre saying was true Alabama and Georgia would be NFL QB factories. Many QB's that have gone on to be great in the NFL got beat up in college by better teams. Its a team sport, and the formula youre trying to use here doesnt work as an indicator for NFL success. If it did work, no one would ever miss on drafting QB's.. but they miss all the time.


Quote:
And again his height matters. Which is why his passesget tipped and why he will struggle passing from the pocket.



Explain why Patrick Mahomes doesn't have issues then -hes the same height roughly as Caleb. Explain why Aaron Rodgers who is close in height to Williams doesn't have issues with it


Explain why one of the shortest QB's in the NFL from 2019-2022 Drew Brees was the best in the NFL at not getting passes batted including going an entire season without a single batted pass (over 500 attempts)

Explain why Justin Fields and Cam Newton were amongst the worst in the NFL in % of passes batted during that same period.


Explain why Caleb didnt have any passes batted down against Houston despite having more pass atempts from the pocket and despite being under more pressure


There have been studies on this, metrics exist to evaluate it and the conclusion is that height isn't much of an indicator for these types of things. And I'll also reiterate that Caleb didn't have any problems with this in college either -and many of his pass attempts came from the pocket.


Nah there are a number of top flight College QBs that played for crappy programs but still played well against Good teams whether their teams won or loss. He looked bad against better competition and his numbers reflect it. Miller Moss, who isn't an NFL player and doesn't have much talent around him, looked better against a damn good Michigan defense than Caleb Williams looked against better defenses. Not that he played great, it's just that he didn't stink.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 7:06 am 
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Oliver Connolly via Yahoo telling me to R-E-L-A-X which makes me feel better.

But he also tells me the Bears "invested heavily in their offensive line." :scratch:

https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-panic-inde ... 30602.html

Quote:
Caleb Williams
After clinching the title of offseason champions, the start to the Bears’ actual season has been dispiriting. An offense expected to deliver fireworks has sputtered. Meanwhile, Chicago have been forced to watch as Jayden Daniels sets fire to secondaries and Justin Fields guides the Steelers to a 3-0 record.

But any sense of panic should be muted. Caleb Williams may have arrived in Chicago with plenty of hype, walking into one of the best situations in a long time for a No 1 overall pick at quarterback. The Bears surrounded their young QB with a glitzy receiving corps. They invested heavily in their offensive line. On the other side of the ball, they returned the bulk of a defense that cracked the top-five by the end of last season. But teething problems were to be expected.

The early returns have been scattershot. Williams has made poor decisions. At times, the game has moved too quickly for him. His accuracy has been up and down, and he’s been anxious to break away from the offense to try to create. But even amid the early hiccups, there are the flashes of the player that Williams will hopefully become. So far, his offensive line has been a sieve, pushing him to indulge his freelancing habit. If that tightens up even slightly, then Williams will be able to distribute the ball around more effectively.

That early August optimism may have faded and the rest of the roster may be further away from playoff contention than anticipated. But as it relates to Williams, Chicago should heed the words of a former foe.

Panic level: 2/10

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 1:57 pm 
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a retard wrote:
Oliver Connolly via Yahoo telling me to R-E-L-A-X which makes me feel better.

But he also tells me the Bears "invested heavily in their offensive line." :scratch:

https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-panic-inde ... 30602.html

Quote:
Caleb Williams
After clinching the title of offseason champions, the start to the Bears’ actual season has been dispiriting. An offense expected to deliver fireworks has sputtered. Meanwhile, Chicago have been forced to watch as Jayden Daniels sets fire to secondaries and Justin Fields guides the Steelers to a 3-0 record.

But any sense of panic should be muted. Caleb Williams may have arrived in Chicago with plenty of hype, walking into one of the best situations in a long time for a No 1 overall pick at quarterback. The Bears surrounded their young QB with a glitzy receiving corps. They invested heavily in their offensive line. On the other side of the ball, they returned the bulk of a defense that cracked the top-five by the end of last season. But teething problems were to be expected.

The early returns have been scattershot. Williams has made poor decisions. At times, the game has moved too quickly for him. His accuracy has been up and down, and he’s been anxious to break away from the offense to try to create. But even amid the early hiccups, there are the flashes of the player that Williams will hopefully become. So far, his offensive line has been a sieve, pushing him to indulge his freelancing habit. If that tightens up even slightly, then Williams will be able to distribute the ball around more effectively.

That early August optimism may have faded and the rest of the roster may be further away from playoff contention than anticipated. But as it relates to Williams, Chicago should heed the words of a former foe.

Panic level: 2/10





One of the bright spots with Caleb these last 2 games is that he’s been very effective and efficient when he’s had time to throw.


He was 15-18 against the Texans when they didn’t blitz him and I believe his numbers were similar (like 15-20) against the Colts when the pocket was clean. Another thing to be upbeat about is they are giving Caleb the entire playbook (for the most part) already while guys like Nix and Daniels are running much more basic schemes.


Still, his deep ball needs to improve, his footwork and mechanics have to be better and more consistent and he needs to hesitate much less on some throws -that 1st pick last weekend was just terrible. Good news is almost all of that is fixable and typical of young QB’s.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 3:25 pm 
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Any quarterback in the NFL should be able to pick apart defenses with relative ease if he has a clean pocket. That’s not some accomplishment. I would honestly expect better performance (like uh, where are the fucking touchdowns??) than what he’s shown.

But anyways, defenses can always dial up pressure if they want it. The Bears OL is definitely at least mid (more likely bad) but even good OL’s get beaten, and defensive coordinators always have the option of rushing more players than there are guys to block them. You simply can’t say “ok we fixed the OL, now he will never throw another INT again” not how it works.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 3:32 pm 
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He's getting rid of the ball in 2.3 seconds. That may have something to do with the pocket being clean. It's how Brady and Burrow survived when they had questionable lines. Both had running games though.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 3:52 pm 
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He was woefully inefficient against a team and defense that sucks ass. Not to mention incredibly inaccurate. And regardless of what most revisionists suggest now, very few saw this coming.
Final chapter is nowhere near being written, but the early returns haven't been good.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 3:57 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
He was woefully inefficient against a team and defense that sucks ass. Not to mention incredibly inaccurate. And regardless of what most revisionists suggest now, very few saw this coming.
Final chapter is nowhere near being written, but the early returns haven't been good.

Williams completion percentage in each of the last two games is better than Fields career completion percentage.

You know Fields, the guy you wanted the Bears to keep, was even more inaccurate.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 3:59 pm 
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I know Mike Martz is a polarizing figure but I found him somewhat interesting on a recent Danny Mac podcast.

Martz is all in on Caleb, he blames the slow start on the o-line, coaching, and the fact he is just a rookie.

As an aside, also some interesting comments on Cutler and Mike McCaskey.

https://youtu.be/_16KOD6TIA4?si=FvYx6-XqBMBejvd4

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:02 pm 
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Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
He was woefully inefficient against a team and defense that sucks ass. Not to mention incredibly inaccurate. And regardless of what most revisionists suggest now, very few saw this coming.
Final chapter is nowhere near being written, but the early returns haven't been good.

Williams completion percentage in each of the last two games is better than Fields career completion percentage.

You know Fields, the guy you wanted the Bears to keep, was even more inaccurate.


You had Caleb Williams to be the better player by now. Newsflash. He ain't

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:07 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
He was woefully inefficient against a team and defense that sucks ass. Not to mention incredibly inaccurate. And regardless of what most revisionists suggest now, very few saw this coming.
Final chapter is nowhere near being written, but the early returns haven't been good.

Williams completion percentage in each of the last two games is better than Fields career completion percentage.

You know Fields, the guy you wanted the Bears to keep, was even more inaccurate.


You had Caleb Williams to be the better player by now. Newsflash. He ain't

You keep on repeating this but I don't remember it. I expected Williams to have some struggles as most rookies do.

However, if Williams was incredibly inaccurate against the Colts then Fields was incredibly inaccurate for his time with the Bears.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:11 pm 
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Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
He was woefully inefficient against a team and defense that sucks ass. Not to mention incredibly inaccurate. And regardless of what most revisionists suggest now, very few saw this coming.
Final chapter is nowhere near being written, but the early returns haven't been good.

Williams completion percentage in each of the last two games is better than Fields career completion percentage.

You know Fields, the guy you wanted the Bears to keep, was even more inaccurate.


You had Caleb Williams to be the better player by now. Newsflash. He ain't

You keep on repeating this but I don't remember it


Perhaps this will refresh your memory some
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
And yes I do think that Justin Fields is the better player. That is why it isn't a tough decision to trade the pick.
That's why I asked.

I think you'll be proven wrong fairly quickly on that.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:12 pm 
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Caleb Williams has more total yards than Fields and nearly more rushing yards. The Bears would also be 3-0 if their defense was giving up less than 10 ppg. In 3 games, Caleb has 1/3 of the passing yards Fields put up in his best passing season. We should build him a statue.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:13 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
He was woefully inefficient against a team and defense that sucks ass. Not to mention incredibly inaccurate. And regardless of what most revisionists suggest now, very few saw this coming.
Final chapter is nowhere near being written, but the early returns haven't been good.

Williams completion percentage in each of the last two games is better than Fields career completion percentage.

You know Fields, the guy you wanted the Bears to keep, was even more inaccurate.


You had Caleb Williams to be the better player by now. Newsflash. He ain't

You keep on repeating this but I don't remember it


Perhaps this will refresh your memory some
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
And yes I do think that Justin Fields is the better player. That is why it isn't a tough decision to trade the pick.
That's why I asked.

I think you'll be proven wrong fairly quickly on that.

It's been 3 games. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:14 pm 
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Nas wrote:
He's getting rid of the ball in 2.3 seconds. That may have something to do with the pocket being clean. It's how Brady and Burrow survived when they had questionable lines. Both had running games though.

Its true, there are many plays where Williams wastes no time airmailing the ball directly to an opposing defender.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:16 pm 
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Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
He was woefully inefficient against a team and defense that sucks ass. Not to mention incredibly inaccurate. And regardless of what most revisionists suggest now, very few saw this coming.
Final chapter is nowhere near being written, but the early returns haven't been good.

Williams completion percentage in each of the last two games is better than Fields career completion percentage.

You know Fields, the guy you wanted the Bears to keep, was even more inaccurate.


You had Caleb Williams to be the better player by now. Newsflash. He ain't

You keep on repeating this but I don't remember it


Perhaps this will refresh your memory some
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
And yes I do think that Justin Fields is the better player. That is why it isn't a tough decision to trade the pick.
That's why I asked.

I think you'll be proven wrong fairly quickly on that.

It's been 3 games. :lol:


Who knew that "fairly quickly" means the 2029 season?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:18 pm 
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Well you won't even answer if Williams will outperform Fields as a Bear. Maybe you don't have a clue about a lot of stuff.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:19 pm 
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a retard wrote:
I know Mike Martz is a polarizing figure but I found him somewhat interesting on a recent Danny Mac podcast.

Martz is all in on Caleb, he blames the slow start on the o-line, coaching, and the fact he is just a rookie.

As an aside, also some interesting comments on Cutler and Mike McCaskey.

https://youtu.be/_16KOD6TIA4?si=FvYx6-XqBMBejvd4


I like Martz…I’ll have to check that out.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:19 pm 
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Brick wrote:
It's been 3 games. :lol:


So by "fairly quickly" you meant as early as the 2029 season. Got it

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Last edited by The Doctor Of Style on Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:19 pm 
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USA wrote:
Nas wrote:
He's getting rid of the ball in 2.3 seconds. That may have something to do with the pocket being clean. It's how Brady and Burrow survived when they had questionable lines. Both had running games though.

Its true, there are many plays where Williams wastes no time airmailing the ball directly to an opposing defender.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:24 pm 
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Caleb Williams has thrown 43 more passes in order to throw for a 100 more yards than Justin Fields. What are we supposed to be talking about exactly?

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