Doug Collins?

Mustang Rob · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 1:04 pm

Show me a coach who "likes" to play rookies and I'll show you a coach who is looking for a job.

Pop, Phil, Riles, the Van Gundy's...
Youth = mistakes = loses.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 1:05 pm

Mustang Rob wrote:

Show me a coach who "likes" to play rookies and I'll show you a coach who is looking for a job.

Pop, Phil, Riles, the Van Gundy's...
Youth = mistakes = loses.

Its not just rookies its young players in general. You disagree that a coach that hates to play young guys wont mesh with this roster very well?

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 1:10 pm

That article fudges the numbers more than a little. It criticizes Collins for not playing Will Perdue--a fairly useless player--but neglects to mention that he gave extensive playing time to Pippen and Grant early in their careers, starting both of them by their second year.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 1:14 pm

Tall Midget wrote:

That article fudges the numbers more than a little. It criticizes Collins for not playing Will Perdue--a fairly useless player--but neglects to mention that he gave extensive playing time to Pippen and Grant early in their careers, starting both of them by their second year.

That was just an excerpt. In the first section about how he plays with the slowest pace in the league he mentions Scottie starting in 88-89.

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 1:20 pm

FavreFan wrote:

Tall Midget wrote:

That article fudges the numbers more than a little. It criticizes Collins for not playing Will Perdue--a fairly useless player--but neglects to mention that he gave extensive playing time to Pippen and Grant early in their careers, starting both of them by their second year.

That was just an excerpt. In the first section about how he plays with the slowest pace in the league he mentions Scottie starting in 88-89.

Well OK, then he's undermining his own argument. Collins played a huge role in the development of Pippen and Grant. Further, in Detroit, he was also a pretty big supporter of Theo Ratliff, gving him decent minutes in his early years. As far as the other guys mentioned in the article go, maybe Collins just prefers bad veterans to bad rookies...

FavreFan · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 1:24 pm

Tall Midget wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Tall Midget wrote:

That article fudges the numbers more than a little. It criticizes Collins for not playing Will Perdue--a fairly useless player--but neglects to mention that he gave extensive playing time to Pippen and Grant early in their careers, starting both of them by their second year.

That was just an excerpt. In the first section about how he plays with the slowest pace in the league he mentions Scottie starting in 88-89.

Well OK, then he's undermining his own argument. Collins played a huge role in the development of Pippen and Grant. Further, in Detroit, he was also a pretty big supporter of Theo Ratliff, gving him decent minutes in his early years. As far as the other guys mentioned in the article go, maybe Collins just prefers bad veterans to bad rookies...

Im not sure 17 minutes per game would be considered decent minutes, especially given how his production and minutes spiked immediately when traded to Philly.

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 1:36 pm

FavreFan wrote:

Tall Midget wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Tall Midget wrote:

That article fudges the numbers more than a little. It criticizes Collins for not playing Will Perdue--a fairly useless player--but neglects to mention that he gave extensive playing time to Pippen and Grant early in their careers, starting both of them by their second year.

That was just an excerpt. In the first section about how he plays with the slowest pace in the league he mentions Scottie starting in 88-89.

Well OK, then he's undermining his own argument. Collins played a huge role in the development of Pippen and Grant. Further, in Detroit, he was also a pretty big supporter of Theo Ratliff, gving him decent minutes in his early years. As far as the other guys mentioned in the article go, maybe Collins just prefers bad veterans to bad rookies...

Im not sure 17 minutes per game would be considered decent minutes, especially given how his production and minutes spiked immediately when traded to Philly.

I think you're distorting the numbers a bit to make your point. Ratliff averaged 17 minutes in his first two years, and then was averaging 24 minutes a game in his third season before being traded to Philly. With Philly, his minutes were increased to 32/gm, but his production was only marginally better than what he was doing earlier that season for Detroit.

In any event, Ratliff was a very raw player coming into the NBA, but Collins sure didn't bury him on the bench.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 1:52 pm

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I dont think marginally would be the word, and I didnt think I was distorting any numbers. His blocks went up 50%, his Rebs went up at the same proportion, and his ppg went up about 80% that third season after going to Philly and his minutes went up just 33%.

Either way, like I said Im not a huge Hollinger fan but I think he made some decent points in the Not a bad coach, but a bad fit article. We'll see.

Coast2Coast · **Joined:** Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:33 am **Posts:** 5039

This 9 page thread will be a testimony to the power of rumors if Collins is not the next coach. Am I missing something or is this simply another unsubstantiated media rumor based on some reporter perhaps seeing Collins and Paxson having dinner together and putting 2+2. Reinsdorf said a week ago on the Waddle & Silvy interview that he had a high degree of respect for Doug, that he and Doug spoke frequently during the season, and that Doug could conceivably have a job in the organization (they were talking assistant coach at the time) if he wanted it. Collins said the job hasn't been offered yet, but that discussions will continue. Why do so many people think he's lying and that a job has already been offered?

I suppose if this were not a possibility Pax might have said something differently, but I understand it would get tiring for a GM like Pax to have to spend so much time refuting every rumor the Chicago media dreams up. Maybe Collins and Pax have discussed the possibility. Maybe Collins is thinking it over. I just find the entire rumor mongering thing to be amusing. Why deal with factual issues when we can talk about somewhat possible ones? Maybe it will happen. Maybe it won't. I won't believe it, though, until Elmhurst Steve tells me so.

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 1:59 pm

The other thing I question about the article is the statement that a guy like Thomas needs to "play through his mistakes". Really? For a guy like Tyrus, I think he needs to learn that there are consequences to making mistakes, that he needs to practice harder and more seriously to avoid making them in games, and that his hard work will be rewarded. Thomas is a goof and no coach should give in to his poor work ethic.

Noah and Sefolosha seem to be kind of player Collins likes so I can see them getting significant time, although Sefolosha needs to improve his ballhandling and strength. If he doesn't, then he should ride the bench, too. Next year will be his third in the league--it's time to demonstrate a work ethic. As for Aaron Gray, I really don't give a shit about him because he is a career backup.

Mustang Rob · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 2:00 pm

FavreFan wrote:

Mustang Rob wrote:

Show me a coach who "likes" to play rookies and I'll show you a coach who is looking for a job.

Pop, Phil, Riles, the Van Gundy's...
Youth = mistakes = loses.

Its not just rookies its young players in general. You disagree that a coach that hates to play young guys wont mesh with this roster very well?

In the NBA, young = less than 3 years of experience.
The bulls roster is young in age, but not as young experience wise.
Most of these guys are on their second contract or in the final year of their rookie deal and as such can't be called "young" any longer.
That has become a HUGE crutch for this organization.

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 2:01 pm

Coast2Coast wrote:

This 9 page thread will be a testimony to the power of rumors if Collins is not the next coach. Am I missing something or is this simply another unsubstantiated media rumor based on some reporter perhaps seeing Collins and Paxson having dinner together and putting 2+2. Reinsdorf said a week ago on the Waddle & Silvy interview that he had a high degree of respect for Doug, that he and Doug spoke frequently during the season, and that Doug could conceivably have a job in the organization (they were talking assistant coach at the time) if he wanted it. Collins said the job hasn't been offered yet, but that discussions will continue. Why do so many people think he's lying and that a job has already been offered?

I suppose if this were not a possibility Pax might have said something differently, but I understand it would get tiring for a GM like Pax to have to spend so much time refuting every rumor the Chicago media dreams up. Maybe Collins and Pax have discussed the possibility. Maybe Collins is thinking it over. I just find the entire rumor mongering thing to be amusing. Why deal with factual issues when we can talk about somewhat possible ones? Maybe it will happen. Maybe it won't. I won't believe it, though, until Elmhurst Steve tells me so.

Collins says he is interested in coaching again and is talking with the Bulls. The Bulls say they are talking with Collins about the head coaching job. It seems like a matter of time before the deal falls into place.

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 2:09 pm

FavreFan wrote:

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I dont think marginally would be the word, and I didnt think I was distorting any numbers. His blocks went up 50%, his Rebs went up at the same proportion, and his ppg went up about 80% that third season after going to Philly and his minutes went up just 33%.

Either way, like I said Im not a huge Hollinger fan but I think he made some decent points in the Not a bad coach, but a bad fit article. We'll see.

You're right--marginal was not a good word choice on my part. His production did improve with Philly, but it's not like he was a world-beater--and Collins wasn't burying him on the bench. I don't remember what that Philly team was like at the time, but wasn't Mutombo starting at center? His offensive deficiencies may help explain Ratliff's improved scoring average.

Overall, I think Collins will play a guy like Noah. Maybe not so much with Thomas. Since neither of these guys is a franchise player, Collins' tenure will likely be defined by how well he can develop Rose or Beasley.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 2:25 pm

Tall Midget wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I dont think marginally would be the word, and I didnt think I was distorting any numbers. His blocks went up 50%, his Rebs went up at the same proportion, and his ppg went up about 80% that third season after going to Philly and his minutes went up just 33%.

Either way, like I said Im not a huge Hollinger fan but I think he made some decent points in the Not a bad coach, but a bad fit article. We'll see.

You're right--marginal was not a good word choice on my part. His production did improve with Philly, but it's not like he was a world-beater--and Collins wasn't burying him on the bench. I don't remember what that Philly team was like at the time, but wasn't Mutombo starting at center? His offensive deficiencies may help explain Ratliff's improved scoring average.

Overall, I think Collins will play a guy like Noah. Maybe not so much with Thomas. Since neither of these guys is a franchise player, Collins' tenure will likely be defined by how well he can develop Rose or Beasley.

Nah Ratliff was later traded for Mutumbo in that deal that helped put Philly over the top in the East at the deadline. I dont really remember that Philly team all that well either though.

I agree with your last paragraph, but I do think Noah has the potential to develop into what Chandler is today which would be pretty good. I agree with you that the idea that Thomas should play through his mistakes given his work ethic to date is a pretty bad idea. He's gonna have to show something next season or he'll be gone.

My Coach Vinny · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 3:27 pm

One of the better threads in recent history. All the back and forth also reminded me of this nugget from the past, in case the new guys haven't had a chance to read it.

http://score670.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5783

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2008 3:41 pm

Coach Crapowski wrote:

One of the better threads in recent history. All the back and forth also reminded me of this nugget from the past, in case the new guys haven't had a chance to read it.

http://score670.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5783

Thanks for that depressing trip down memory lane, Coach. Geez.

Beardown · **Joined:** Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:29 pm **Posts:** 33998

Scottie, I'm sure Doug had some money in the bank. Food wasn't taken off his table. But I get your point. You liked him.

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Sat May 31, 2008 8:11 am

I don't buy the Pippen quote. It's the same thing as Grant Hill denying that he got Collins fired in Detroit when it was widely reported that he was the reason Doug got the axe there.

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:25 pm

Tall Midget wrote:

Nas wrote:

Tall Midget wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Tall Midget wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

He'll be a PF in the NBA.

Moreso in a couple of years than right away, wouldn't you say?

I can certainly see that. One of the things that scares me about Beasley is that he currently looks like a "tweener" to me. Sometimes it works out really well but sometimes it just doesn't carry over.

I think a lot of it will depend on what team drafts him. If he gets drafted by the Bulls, I think they will want to get Deng at the 3 and let Beasley play the 4.

If he doesn't grow anymore, he probably is always a SF.

I would agree with your assessment. I also think it's a mistake to assume that he will continue growing. How much has he grown in the past year, if at all? Does anywone know? And what is his true height?

We will find out if he is still 6'9" and 235lbs in a week or so. Most people don't stop growing at 18. Deng came into the league at 6'6" and he is almost 6'9". David Robinson grew 6 inches after his 18th birthday. Went to college as a guard came out a center.

From what I've read, men (on average) stop growing by age 20. Between ages 19 and 20, average growth is only around one inch. Beasley is currently about 19.5 years old. If he has grown in the past 6-12 months, it is likely he will continue to grow, but probably not by that much. If not, he may be done. I don't claim any expertise on this issue, but I've read that one's height can be accurately estimated through a medical examination of an individual's growth plates.

In an interview at the Orlando Pre-Draft Camp, Beasley responded to a question about his height by rather enigmatically stating "I would say that I am 6-9." What the fuck does that mean? To me, it suggests that he is shorter than 6-9, but I guess we'll probably find out for sure after he works out for the Bulls. Apparently he is quite a gym rat and put on over 25 pounds of muscle at Memphis.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:29 pm

Tall Midget wrote:

In an interview at the Orlando Pre-Draft Camp, Beasley responded to a question about his height by rather enigmatically stating "I would say that I am 6-9." What the fuck does that mean? To me, it suggests that he is shorter than 6-9, but I guess we'll probably find out for sure after he works out for the Bulls. Apparently he is quite a gym rat and put on over 25 pounds of muscle at Memphis.

Thats what I was getting at before. I have no fucking idea what makes athletes inherently unable to figure out their height and weight. Give me a tape measure and a scale and I can tell you in 30 seconds my measurements.

It is nice to hear that last sentence if we do take him though. He's gonna need that muscle. If he's 6'9'' and 250 pounds built like a rock he can play PF. I still think C is out of the question for him. At either rate, I hope we take Rose.

Brick · **Posted:** Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:59 pm

Tall Midget wrote:

In an interview at the Orlando Pre-Draft Camp, Beasley responded to a question about his height by rather enigmatically stating "I would say that I am 6-9." What the fuck does that mean? To me, it suggests that he is shorter than 6-9, but I guess we'll probably find out for sure after he works out for the Bulls. Apparently he is quite a gym rat and put on over 25 pounds of muscle at Memphis.

You mean Kansas State right?

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:38 pm

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Tall Midget wrote:

In an interview at the Orlando Pre-Draft Camp, Beasley responded to a question about his height by rather enigmatically stating "I would say that I am 6-9." What the fuck does that mean? To me, it suggests that he is shorter than 6-9, but I guess we'll probably find out for sure after he works out for the Bulls. Apparently he is quite a gym rat and put on over 25 pounds of muscle at Memphis.

You mean Kansas State right?

Whoops! Yes, good catch.

BD · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:05 pm **Posts:** 12449

Nas wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Tall Midget wrote:

In an interview at the Orlando Pre-Draft Camp, Beasley responded to a question about his height by rather enigmatically stating "I would say that I am 6-9." What the fuck does that mean? To me, it suggests that he is shorter than 6-9, but I guess we'll probably find out for sure after he works out for the Bulls. Apparently he is quite a gym rat and put on over 25 pounds of muscle at Memphis.

Thats what I was getting at before. I have no fucking idea what makes athletes inherently unable to figure out their height and weight. Give me a tape measure and a scale and I can tell you in 30 seconds my measurements.

It is nice to hear that last sentence if we do take him though. He's gonna need that muscle. If he's 6'9'' and 250 pounds built like a rock he can play PF. I still think C is out of the question for him. At either rate, I hope we take Rose.

These things are always lied about. When I was in high school coaches would lie about our height and weight. My junior year in high school I was 150 pounds soak and wet but I was listed at 170. Some guys that were short had a couple inches added to their height. Guys like Shaq get a few pounds off their weight. I guess it is supposed to give the team or player a psychological advantage.

I always just assume that a NBA player is about 2 inches shorter than his listed height.

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:51 am

If you look at Beasley on his highlight videos when he's standing near other players, he really doesn't seem all that tall. Definitely not 6-10. Probably not 6-9. Maybe 6-8? If he continues to put on muscle, he will be an NBA power forward. Right now he is a small forward. Does his ability to add muscle weight so rapidly indicates that he has stopped growing?

FavreFan · **Posted:** Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:46 pm

Coast2Coast wrote:

This 9 page thread will be a testimony to the power of rumors if Collins is not the next coach.

Nice call Coast. Still, it was finally a chance for me and Nas to argue a bit, which we dont ever really get an opportunity to do.

Doug Collins?

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