I like a comparison to the rest of the league. I don't see them all pitch.

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Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.

Huh?

I've long said WAR is absolutely a useless stat but I don't see how that's possible ..unless Scherzer pitches til he's 49

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Both HOF ... But Scherzer is better than C.C.

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Just came back to respond to my clipped and bitchy post--was gonna say something like this.

One reason I point to longevity, though, is Dave Stewart. (Hell, even Jack McDowell or Oswalt or Jake Arrieta.) Great end to his career, outstanding in the playoffs, a workhorse, but didn't even get 10%.

Huh? You don't seem to grasp how WAR works. How about this- we can bet right now that Scherzer won't pass Rick Reuschel in career WAR.

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Should Tommy John be in?

He's borderline at best. I'd probably have him in ahead of Jack Morris though.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

RR was before my time, He appears to have 2 seasons at a quick glance that can compete with Max.. I'm the one who just stated War = worthless.

Do you believe RR is equal to or better - worse than Max?

RR was also a career NL guy

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No, the point is that using WAR as a baseline for the Hall is silly.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Agree.. I've never put jack shit into WAR as a stat, You just confirmed that you agree WAR is dogshit.

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Also, if Scherzer's career ended tomorrow, is he more deserving of enshrinement than Gooden or Stieb?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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I wouldn't say it's dogshit, but it is a counting stat, just an aggregate counting stat.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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It's dogshit..look no further than the Guppy..I've tried to find that thread and couldn't..please bump

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Samardzija has never had a 3 WAR season. He's at about 12 for his career. WAR doesn't tell you anything about a pitcher you didn't already know.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

War for pitchers is better as a season to season comparison against other pitchers. Counting up for an entire career skews the usefulness.

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Elections have consequences.

Stieb seems like a weird name to throw out. Especially for a W-L guy like yourself.

I have Gooden is way above Stieb. Gooden should be in. (But I have a soft spot for guys who were unbelievable dominant for a stretch)

I think Stieb is about .560 and played for some shitty teams. I think if we look at the entire body of work, it's hard to say Gooden was better than Stieb. Of course, Gooden may have had the best single season any pitcher ever had.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
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With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Also, Gooden scores very high on the WOW factor. I mean that has to be part of it, imo. Watching him in his prime and then even later when he regained some of that form was awesome.

Agreed. Way too much emphasis is put on W/L. deGrom is having one of the best seasons in the league and his record is 7-7.

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Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.

Who is the great starter with a .500 career record? Can you name just one please?

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Be hard to for a career, but for individual seasons, sure.

Right, but nobody goes into the Hall off one season.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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That's a terrible point. Over the course of a career a HOF pitcher will consistently give his team a much higher chance of winning which will result in that pitcher having a winning record. But there are many examples of a pitcher having an excellent season with a near .500 record due to low run support. deGrom is your example this year.

And to answer your question- Nolan Ryan had a career record of 324-292 which works out to an average record of 12-11 over his 27-year career.

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Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.

It's not a terrible point. And do we have to go over again how "run support" doesn't exist? It's just a pitcher that you're supposed to be better than pitching better than you did.

Anyway, Nolan Ryan is far from a great pitcher. He was a spectacular pitcher. He is a special guy in that he is the hardest pitcher to hit. But that's where the confusion is in the way the game is looked at in the computer analytics era- the idea that a "pitcher's job is to miss bats." That isn't a pitcher's job at all.

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Yes there are anomalies from season to season but over a career you see who is a winner and who is a loser.

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But run support DOES exist. JORR incorrectly believes all offenses are essentially the same.

Yes. Over the course of a career it all basically balances out.

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"Run support" is nothing more than the (usually smaller) amount of runs allowed by a guy you are insisting isn't as good as the guy you are defending.

Within the space of a single game most offenses are indistinguishable. When you factor in the pitcher you are insisting is "great", all the advantage should be in favor of your guy in the vast majority of his starts.

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Unless you pitch for the White Sox in the 1960s

But that's a good example. There is a connection between the fact that those Sox pitchers all had low ERAs and the fact that their offense was low scoring. That's why the W/L records are important. A park can hold the offensive numbers down, but one starter will pitch better than the other.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don